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Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 11 & 12
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caamora
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 6:12 pm    Post subject: Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 11 & 12 Reply with quote

These two chapters are chock full of info! This is where we meet the Land's best people.

Atiaran and TC leave the Andelainian Hills, broken of spirit and defeated of heart. She tells TC of the Unfettered One who saved them. They walk to the Soulsease River and there meet - A GIANT!! Saltheart Foamfollower. After the evil in Andelain, we get a breath of fresh air and humor with Foamfollower. Again, SRD takes us from one extreme to the other. First the horror of the destruction of the Wraiths and then an about face into the pure arms of a Giant. And Foamfollower shows us what is best in Giants. Their love of the healing power of laughter and their love of stories just to name a few.

Then SRD takes them to REVELSTONE! TC finally gets to see the wonderment of Revelstone. We meet BANNOR and the Bloodguard. Both Revelstone and the Bloodguard ooze safety and protection. And yet, TC is confused and off-balance from the impenetrability of the Bloodguard and the maze of corridors and stairways of Revelstone.

THEN, the first lord he meets is MHORHAM! Need I say more?

These are some of my favorite chapters because of all the people we meet. Birinair and Tohrm keeping Revelstone lit and warm, Foamfollower, Bannor, and Mhorham.

I had a couple of questions about Atiaran but I want to leave that grouchy old hag behind and get onto more pleasant things!
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An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy. “It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority and ego.

The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.

The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.”

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”

The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Stone and Sea are deep in life,
two unalterable symbols of the world:
permanence at rest, and permanence in motion;
participants in the Power that remains.


----------------

Mm...yes. Foamfollower and Mhoram - my two favorite characters. I can't help smiling when Foamfollower comes sailing down the Soulsease River in that boat of his - Stone and Sea! Birinair and Tohrm are great, Mhoram is wonderful, and I can almost forget that Covenant is still in his annoying Unbeliever phase at this point. Very Happy

~Foamy~
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, he could almost be wearing a t-shirt that says "Bite Me!" at this point, couldn't he? Laughing But you have to give him credit, that even he knows that he's being obnoxious sometimes, like when he first meets Foamy. Foamy, Bannor, and Mhoram are my favorite characters, three true heroes for the Land. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Foamfollower's humor is wonderful!
Quote:
"Are you a storyteller, Thomas Covenant?"
Absently, he replied, "I was, once."
"And you gave it up? Ah, that is as sad a tale in three words as any you might have told me. But a life without a tale is like a sea without salt. How do you live?"
.......Unconsciously, he clenched his fist over his ring. "I live."
"Another?" Foamfollower returned. "In two words, a story sadder than the first. Say no more-with one word you will make me weep."


And later, TC's attempt at humor.
Quote:
In relief, Covenant murmered over him, "Now that's a fine way to end a song-'and then he went to sleep.' What good is being a hero if you don't stay awake until you get congratulated?"


If the Land is not real, does Foamfollower represent Covenant's lost stories?

Also, did the Bloodguard take the Oath of Peace?
Quote:
....but Bannor's gaze gave no hint of any Oath of Peace.

_________________
An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy. “It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority and ego.

The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.

The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.”

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”

The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No they didnt. Remember, Mhoram said something like, Their whatever their pledge to the Lords was, is different then their Oath. Their pledge (man Im drawing a blank!) is above the OoP.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a few issues that came to my mind when reading.

About Atiaran (sorry Caamora), this is where we (and Covenant) part from her.
Covenant sees the conflict that is consuming Atiaran:
Quote:
At last Covenant saw clearly the moral struggle that wasted her, the triple conflict between her abhorrence of him, her fear for the land, and her dismay at her own weakness - a struggle whose expence exhasted her resources, reduced her to penury.

Why does Atiaran feel she is weak? why does she take upon herself blame for all the evil things that have happened?

Atiaran sees Covenant's abandoning of the Wraiths a terrible crime, even worse than the rape of her own daughter:
Quote:
Since the Celebration - since you permitted Wraithes to die - this blade has cried out for your blood. Other crimes I could set aside. I speak for my own. But that -! to countenance such desecration- !

This I completely don't understand, what is so important about the Wraiths that she values them more than her own daughter?

Foamfollower is such a contrast to Atiaran, it shows immediately when they meet. She is bitter, introverted, harsh, suspicious. I found her personality 'flat' in that there is only one ideal that drives her - the Land, and according to it she judges everything. Foamfollower on the other hand has depth, yet he is also light, his good humor and attitude is what I like most about him. Foamfollower is the first character that understands Covenant and befriends him. He gives Covenant the clingor to hide his ring. Foamfollower's wisdom is expressed in his sayings, like:
Quote:
Power has a way of revenging itself upon its usurpers.

In many ways Foamfollower is Covenant's teacher, he shows him the path to 'enlightment' - my analogy is a Budhist teacher.

Covenant has a dream - a dream within a dream? He dreams being hit by a police car, being condemned by his townspeople. In his dream Covenant thinks "I don't believe this" and the townspeople answer in unision:
Quote:
You are dead. Without the community, you can't live. ... You can't live if no one cares.
and the answer of the people:
Quote:
There is only one good answer to death. Heal him...

And then a tenor voice says:
Quote:
Do not fear. It is a dream.

How cynical! But what is the significance of this dream?

-pitch
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never been able to get a handle on Atiaran here, either. If she has to blame someone for the Wraiths, then why not put the blame where it should go? Drool and/or Foul. TC didn't send the urViles, and did his best to help the Wraiths. So why blame him in any way? And I've always thought that she's stronger than she's willing to admit. She looks down upon herself for no reason that I can understand. Yes, she left school, but she's always used what she learned there to help others and she's obviously very looked up to in the Stonedown. She's able to keep her Oath of Peace under nearly impossible conditions. So why does she keep flogging herself as a failure? And why add to TC's guilt pile? He had nothing to do with what happened to the wraiths, and showed himself willing to risk his life to save them.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this is all a dream or vision, then I think that Foamfollower would be his creativity and laughter, Bannor his ability to stick to his Vows and beliefs, and Mhoram his humanity and compassion. These three represent the best in him, and also the best in the Land.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pitchwife wrote:
And then a tenor voice says: Do not fear. It is a dream.


I think that voice was Foamfollower. It says "a bubbling tenor voice," which is how Foamy's voice was described when we first met him. Covenant must have been talking and/or thrashing in his sleep, and Foamy was trying to calm him down - and his voice was integrated into Covenant's dream.

duchess of malfi wrote:
If this is all a dream or vision, then I think that Foamfollower would be his creativity and laughter, Bannor his ability to stick to his Vows and beliefs, and Mhoram his humanity and compassion. These three represent the best in him, and also the best in the Land.


ITA. Well said. Smile

~Foamy~
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 4:59 am    Post subject: personal hygeine Reply with quote

If I wore the same clothes for about a month without any baths and at least one headfirst slide down a hill full of mud and getting so much exercise that I pass out on my feet at least once, and get cut up with a knife and bleed all over myself and get into a fight with urviles and get who knows what gunk on my clothes -- I would not rinse out my clothes in a bathtub and then put them back on. They would be burned -- especially the underwear. Yuck! Rolling Eyes Mad
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest, you just grossed me out. But I think that he clings to those clothes beyond reason because they are his link to home and the real world. But you're right about the undies. Yuck! Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One word: clingor. Shocked
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The duct tape of the Land! Right on! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2002 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atiaran's basically severe.. as much as she might do for the people of the Stonedown she's consumed with her own sense of failure, and when TC isn't able [willing in her eyes] to save the wraiths she applies the same hard standards to him. Bit of simple projection going on there.. enhanced by the enmity she obviously already bore him.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2002 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Kasreyn! What you said! Atiaran has considered herself a failure ever since she "flunked out" of the Loresraat. There's a comment she makes in Chapter 8:

Quote:
"... The price of such mastery and courage are required by Kevin's Lore -- and there are some," she said as if she were resolved not to spare her own feelings, "who cannot match the need. I failed when that which I learned made my heart quail -- when the Lorewardens led me to see, just a little way, into the Despite of the Grey Slayer. That I could not bear, and so I broke my devotion and returned to Mithil Stonedown to use the little that I knew for my people...."


Atiaran considers herself a failure because she was no match for Foul -- as if that is an easy thing to be. There are people in our world who are perfectionists, who consider their human failings to be hideous flaws in character, and who are unable to forgive themselves for being human. I think Atiaran is that sort of person.

I suspect that she blamed Covenant for the destruction of the Wraiths partly because she already had so much else to blame him for (which she was suppressing in order to do her duty to the Land), and partly because she doesn't really believe -- or has not fully realized -- the full extent of Covenant's ignorance. TC really does not know how to wield the wild magic. We know that, of course, because we come from the same kind of non-magic world that TC does. But I don't think Atiaran fully believes him.

As for Foamfollower -- I like the idea that he represents TC's lost stories. I think Bannor frightens TC, and Covenant doesn't want to admit it. And Mhoram -- ah, what a good guy!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2002 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK I'm really not trying 2 spoil here--just referring 2 a book cover...I know that in Peter Goodfellow's painting of The Power That Preserves that's supposed 2 b Covenant w/Saltheart Foamfollower--but he's dressed exactly like an Eoman!!! What in the WORLD is up w/that?? Check this out from Revelstone, LFB pg. 206:
Quote:
The riders looked like warriors. They wore high, soft-soled boots over black leggings, black sleeveless shirts covered by breastplates molded of a golden yellow metal, and yellow headbands.
See the "I'm a leper" picture on Kevin's Watch. com's cover page..and if u don't kno how 2 get there go 2: Links in this index.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2002 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No worse, I suppose, than the other illustrators' tendency to put Covenant in a Lord's robe, when the text clearly indicates that he's wearing a t-shirt and jeans....
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2002 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bravo, aliantha! Laughing
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An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy. “It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority and ego.

The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.

The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.”

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”

The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”
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caamora
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2002 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bravo, aliantha! Laughing
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An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy. “It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority and ego.

The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.

The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.”

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”

The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2002 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

caamora has double vision--is she tipsy!? Very Happy Yes, sadly, both u ladies r right--I guess the editors thought it wouldn't b Fantasy-ish enuf if the main character was in reg. "our world" casual, or (Haven) farm, wear...
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