Lord Foul's Bane - Chapters 15 and 16

Vain · Last edited by Vain on Sun Nov 17, 2002 4:21 am; edited 1 time in total

It's at time like these that I think: Where's the movie?

Foamfollower1013 · Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2002 3:42 am Post subject:

duchess of malfi · Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2002 4:31 am Post subject:

Well, he certainly does prove his ability to be stubborn in these chapters, doesn't he? Spoiler:

And it's a darn good thing he's so stubborn, too. He could have never kept going in TPTP if he weren't.

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Skyweir · Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2002 8:28 am Post subject:

that description of our environment is profound isnt it?? scenary??!!

beauty .. scenary .. no wonder this piece of vocabulary was alien to Mhoram .. the people of the Land are not distinct from their environment .. they are a fundamental part of it ..

This is an indictment against us .. generally speaking Wink

.. but to the people of the Land .. their environment is integral to their survival and they are reverently aware of it

.. whereas our environment is of equal value to our survival .. but we .. again generally speaking .. just dont get it! .. we dont revere our earth and its very real existent 'earth power' .. I think SRD has a profound message for us in his chronicles ..

We alienate ourselves from our environment .. our Land .. and do not revere its health as the inhabitants of SRD's earth do .. nor do we acknowledge it is health, power and energy .. it means life to us too but regrettably we dont respect our connection to our planet the way the people of the Land do .. we can learn so much from these fictional peoples ..

I love the relationship the inhabitants of the Land have with their earth .. the way their lore protects and preserves their earth .. and would that our lore/law would do the same ..

place environmental imperatives before economic ones .. protect and preserve our finite resources .. safe-guard endangered and threatened species .. be more like the example given in the Land..

I love the Land .. and I love the lore that preserves it .. the Oath of Peace which Foamy defined .. is another of the amazing and higher ideals we see given birth to by SRD in his creation .. there is so much to this work of fantasy that can have real value in our world ..

my 2.5 cents ..
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Lord Mhoram · Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2002 6:22 pm Post subject:

Do not hurt where holding is enough;
do not wound where hurting is enough;
do not maim where wounding is enough;
and kill not where maiming is enough;
the greatest warrior is one who does not need to kill.

Almost Biblical isnt it? Beatitudes right? I like that Sky, they are PART of thier enviorment. Its so true...
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duchess of malfi · Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2002 6:36 pm Post subject:

One thing I've always found really interesting is Lord Mhoram and his attitude towards the Creator as shown in this part of the Chronicles. From chapter 16:

Lord Mhoram · Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2002 9:22 pm Post subject: This whole post is a spoiler!

I think his faith in the next two books is not in the Creator, but in the Land and power of the Lords. Even in the quote you just provided, there is probably still a level of faith, or belief.
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duchess of malfi · Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2002 5:05 am Post subject:

I know that he would probably never do it, but wouldn't it be cool if Donaldson would rewrite the chronicles from a point of view from someone from the Land? Kind of how Card rewrote Ender's War from Bean's viewpoint and called it Ender's Shadow? We get those few precious chapters from Mhoram's point of view later on, and the very wonderful Gildenfire from Korik's. But that's it. So many mysteries would be solved...I realize that it would interfere with the entire dream or reality motif he has going, but still...and yes, Vain, Donaldson's writing is so vivid that it would make a wonderful movie. So many wonderful descriptions. Here's one of the wolf cry:

MsMary · Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2002 1:45 am Post subject:

Well said, Sky. ITA. We really could learn from the people of the Land.

~Foamy~
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Lord Mhoram · Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2002 10:49 pm Post subject:

Foamy! On her mom's sn?? Shocked

They truly WERE wise people...
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pitchwife · Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2002 6:48 am Post subject:

The oath of peace... pacifism... nonviolence... two things come to mind, Mahatma Ghandi, and Christ, a mix of the two cultures that influenced SRD.

Poor Covenant, he suffers so much in these chapters, his torture both physical and mental, he is repeatedly stung, traumatized, victimized, until he fears that "if the attacks continued he would inevitably learn to enjoy the sense of horror and loathing which they gave him"

An interesting quote:

Lady Genni · Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2002 6:55 pm Post subject:

I like that we finally get a chance to see what the OAP is. It's mentioned repeatedly but this is our first chance to really see what it says.

I really like the passage about the Creator and the exchanges between Mhoram and his parents. The are the token sweet old couple.

It stands out in my mind that the people of the Land don't really believe in the Creator because they don't really see his power or presence in the Land. Earthpower on the other hand is part of their daily lives and they seem to revere that as if it were a god. So maybe the Land is their God and that's what the serve.

Just my thoughts...
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duchess of malfi · Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2002 8:44 pm Post subject:

That's a very interesting and good point, Lady. That they "worship" the earthpower and the land, rather than the Creator. It is, after all, what they know. And way back in Mithil Stonedown we learned that the people of the Land have a moment of silence before the meal to thank the earth for its bounty, where many religious people in our world would skip thanking the earth and go right on up to thanking the creator (depending upon their religion, of course).
I also like the interactions between Lord Mhoram and his parents. There is clearly a lot of love there! Smile

Maybe that's why he's such a darned nice guy! Very Happy

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Lord Mhoram · Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2002 11:47 pm Post subject:

I think that the Creator is more of a myth then a god, its the smarter ones like Mhoram who truly believe in the Creator. Regardless if they believed in the Creator or not, he was a distant power who was just...watching.

I dont think that the Landers 'worship' the Land, its more respect that worship.
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Foamfollower1013 · Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 4:07 am Post subject:

duchess of malfi · Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 4:50 am Post subject: some creepy foreshadowing

In chapter 15, High Lord Prothall says:

Guest · 0 White Gold Dollars User Items:

Hi!
I'm new here and would just like to point out that:

Do not hurt where holding is enough;
do not wound where hurting is enough;
do not maim where wounding is enough;
and kill not where maiming is enough;
the greatest warrior is one who does not need to kill.

sounds remarkably similar to an often used Sun Tzu quote (from "the Art of War").

Senor trout · Guest 0 White Gold Dollars User Items:

Thanks for pointing out the source of the Oath of Peace (I asked for it on another thread).

As with other portions of the Chronicles, some of what Donaldson uses is seems similar to , or even borrowed, from other literature. There are several possibilities as regards The Lord of the Rings, for example.

There are several ways to look at this. One is that some truths cut across religions and cultures; most of our world religions advocate peace and justice. Another is that we need to remember that Covenant might be dreaming all of this; if he is, then we would expect portions of his memory, including memory of Chinese culture, to "seep" into his dream of the Land. Finally, who knows if Donaldson either consciously or subconsciously "borrowed" this phrase as a wonderful expression of the oath of peace for the Land.

Spoiler:

For me , one of the most moving, and disturbing, parts of the Chronicles is when Mhoram is suspecting that the Oath of Peace is the reason the Lords cannot further discern Kevin's wards; he is considering the possibility of dismissing their basic faith in peace in order to further their quest of knowledge. Isn't that what we do when we consider war as a means of making peace?

Senor trout (I couldn't get logged on today)