Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Portrayal of Women in TCOTC
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Falconer Winterleaf
The John Connnor of Linden's Army!

Male
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 52

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Southron Wastes
37 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of Linden's Army1 Lomillialor1 Pocket Knife


PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
Yes, but to be fair, some of those female charachters have gone on to be great participants in the stories they 'inhabit' and quickly put their own stamp on the 'standard trope' template from which they spring. And I always quite liked that soft slightly cartoony feel that books like the 'Shannara' series had - OK, it's simple and formulaic, but it can still be damn good fun!

By the way in a quote somewhere up above The Duchess of Amalfi (I think) says that Elena betrayed the Land, though she was not inherently evil. I cannot but but be Shocked by this idea. Elena absolutely did NOT betray the Land. Out of her love and sacrifice for the Land she made a mistake. Wheter Corruption had a part in that mistake or not I do not know - but I do know there was no betrayal involved in it.


Okay, I have two words for this. Kevin Landwaster. 'Nuff said?

I mean, come on. He betrayed the land too and pretty much fell into the same trap that Elena did. Out of his love and sacrifice for the Land, he made a mistake too. Mind you, he enacted the Ritual of Desacration, but it's only the differance between burning a part of the house down versus most of it. She broke the Law of Death, which was almost a Desacration. (Sorry for spelling.)

So, in short, despite their best intentions, they both betrayed the Land.
_________________
"Branches spread and tree trunks grow
Through rain and heat and snow and cold:
Though wide world's winds untimely blow,
And earthquakes rock and cliff unseal,

My leaves grow green and seedlings bloom
Since days before the Earth was old
And Time began its walk to doom,
The Forests world's bare rock anneal,

Forbidding dusty waste and death
I am the Land's Creator's hold:
I inhale all expiring breath,
And breath out life to bind and heal.

But ax and fire leave me dead.
I know the hate of hands grown bold.
Depart to save your heart-sap's red:
My hate knows neither rest nor weal."

TCTC: About to start FR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter
the spider from Mars


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 6595

Thanks: 38
Thanked 43 Times in 42 Posts


21086 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lina Heartlistener wrote:
Okayyy... I'mma just gonna say - "thems sounds like fightin' words"!!! Didn't you see what Matrixman's post there?!?!?

Yes well - my loyalty to Elena (unlike Covenant's) runs deep, and I 'bridal' ( Wink) at use of words like 'betrayal' to describe her sacrifice.
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
I'm Murrin
Aren't you?


Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Posts: 15199

Thanks: 7
Thanked 40 Times in 38 Posts

Location: North East, UK
19836 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Rubber Duck


PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The women are victims - but so are the men.
_________________
Inspiration Struck.

Mod of the General Fantasy/Sci-Fi Forum
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
sindatur
The Grey Owl Wizard

Male
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 6501

Thanks: 7
Thanked 32 Times in 32 Posts


6332 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 2009 Watchies


PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, but, even though the Ritual of Descrecation burned the whole house down, to get rid of the termites, a new hosue was able to be built, just like the old one, and there was peace for 1000s of years, there was no permanent harm done.

Elena caused permanent harm by breaking the Law of Death, that couldn't be undone.
_________________
I Never Fail To Be Astounded By The Things We Do For Promises - Ronnie James Dio (All The Fools Sailed Away)

Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them

Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain

Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Falconer Winterleaf
The John Connnor of Linden's Army!

Male
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 52

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Southron Wastes
37 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of Linden's Army1 Lomillialor1 Pocket Knife


PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But without the Law of Death broken, Covenant wouldn't have been able to beat Foul in the Second Chronicals. So, perhaps neither of them betrayed the Land?

And, btw, it is my goal is to have all be Linden Lover's. Even if it's the last thing I do!
_________________
"Branches spread and tree trunks grow
Through rain and heat and snow and cold:
Though wide world's winds untimely blow,
And earthquakes rock and cliff unseal,

My leaves grow green and seedlings bloom
Since days before the Earth was old
And Time began its walk to doom,
The Forests world's bare rock anneal,

Forbidding dusty waste and death
I am the Land's Creator's hold:
I inhale all expiring breath,
And breath out life to bind and heal.

But ax and fire leave me dead.
I know the hate of hands grown bold.
Depart to save your heart-sap's red:
My hate knows neither rest nor weal."

TCTC: About to start FR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cambo
Jack's Complete Lack of Surprise

Ranyhyn
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 2022

Thanks: 0
Thanked 28 Times in 26 Posts

Location: New Zealand
2052 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Furls Fire


PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neither Kevin nor Elena betrayed the Land- they just screwed up. The Haruchai would probably think that mistakes on that order of magnitude are indistinguishable from betrayal. But I'm a little more forgiving.

Peter wrote:
Yes, but to be fair, some of those female charachters have gone on to be great participants in the stories they 'inhabit' and quickly put their own stamp on the 'standard trope' template from which they spring. And I always quite liked that soft slightly cartoony feel that books like the 'Shannara' series had - OK, it's simple and formulaic, but it can still be damn good fun!


Hey I love the Belgariad. In the same way I love action movies. Disconnect the brain, and just enjoy the ride. Cool But it did make me chuckle that I could attach a name to each of the fantasy tropes directly from Eddings' work. I admit I have a soft spot for Polgara, but "powerful female magic user with terminal PMS" sums her up pretty well.

Falconer Winterleaf wrote:
And, btw, it is my goal is to have all be Linden Lover's. Even if it's the last thing I do!


Hahaha, good luck with that one!
_________________
^"Amusing, worth talking to, completely insane...pick your favourite." - Avatar

http://variousglimpses.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Linna Heartlistener
"The lady's fate is writ in water."

FemaleRanyhyn
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 3294

Thanks: 52
Thanked 61 Times in 61 Posts


4536 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Mithil Stonedown1 Caamora1 Lord Mhoram's Victory


PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murrin- Yes. THANK you.

peter wrote:
Yes well - my loyalty to Elena (unlike Covenant's) runs deep, and I 'bridal' at use of words like 'betrayal' to describe her sacrifice.


Umm, I don't know if I can keep talking with you about this subject. While I may be an ardent Linden Lover, I certainly wish to join the ranks of THOO-HLE-H, (Where "HLE" stands for "High Lord Elena") or w/e you wanna call it.

Gahhh, "THOOHLEH" sounds almost exactly like THOOLAH. :< Confusing.

Ummm... maybe we can talk about Memla or something. I seem to remember Memla being AMAZING. How come nobody ever talks about her?!?
_________________
"...The sprinkler is a magnificent invention because it exposes raindrops to sunshine.
That does happen in nature, but it is rare.
...you two are dancing around in your iridescent little downpour whooping and stomping as sane people ought to do when they encounter a thing so miraculous as water."

"Gilead," by Marilynne Robinson
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter
the spider from Mars


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 6595

Thanks: 38
Thanked 43 Times in 42 Posts


21086 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy It is a mark of the civility of the Watch that we never have a problem with 'agreeing to disagree' - and I love that. (Can't promise to become a member of thooeleleh or whatever it was though Wink
Yes - Melma was awsome, loved her to bits!
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Falconer Winterleaf
The John Connnor of Linden's Army!

Male
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 52

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Southron Wastes
37 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of Linden's Army1 Lomillialor1 Pocket Knife


PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah....I think Gibbon-Raver did too! Lol.

Memla was fairly cool, but she died really early on. We barely knew her. I think she was SRD's version of the Red Shirts. Kinda sucks, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

And I don't care how hard it will be to "exterminate" THOOLAH, I'm going to do my best. But THOOHLEH can stick around. Not a big fan of Elena. Just a bit to crazy and creepy, thanks! I will concede the hot point, though. Seems like you can only get two of the three in the land. Beutiful, Sane, Smart. Elena was missing sane.....which seemed to effect the smart. And the beutiful, but the other direction.

We need an item for THOOHLEH, now.

Wonder if there is an connection to people's opinon of Elena to their opinon of Linden.
_________________
"Branches spread and tree trunks grow
Through rain and heat and snow and cold:
Though wide world's winds untimely blow,
And earthquakes rock and cliff unseal,

My leaves grow green and seedlings bloom
Since days before the Earth was old
And Time began its walk to doom,
The Forests world's bare rock anneal,

Forbidding dusty waste and death
I am the Land's Creator's hold:
I inhale all expiring breath,
And breath out life to bind and heal.

But ax and fire leave me dead.
I know the hate of hands grown bold.
Depart to save your heart-sap's red:
My hate knows neither rest nor weal."

TCTC: About to start FR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vraith
LibTard, Mr. Reliable.


Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 9778

Thanks: 17
Thanked 85 Times in 83 Posts

Location: everywhere, all the time
34882 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Raver1 Wraith1 Caesure


PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falconer Winterleaf wrote:

And I don't care how hard it will be to "exterminate" THOOLAH, I'm going to do my best.


Be very careful...they'll hunt you down. I once posted somewhere a minor rant about the errors of THOOLAH thinking, and got a pm from someone to stop ruining their fun.
_________________
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
-------------------------------------------------------
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Falconer Winterleaf
The John Connnor of Linden's Army!

Male
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 52

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Southron Wastes
37 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of Linden's Army1 Lomillialor1 Pocket Knife


PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My armor is proof against most assaults! I shall provale! At the very least, I will either cripple them or convince them to keep their lothing private.

But, I will gather my power first. Once I have have rallied the armies of Revelstone, I shall commit my forces to battle against Soulcrusher! And I will lead the way, as the High Lord of the hundreds of Eomen I plan to send forth!



Okay, so maybe my plans are a bit high sighted. I'll start small. I promise.
_________________
"Branches spread and tree trunks grow
Through rain and heat and snow and cold:
Though wide world's winds untimely blow,
And earthquakes rock and cliff unseal,

My leaves grow green and seedlings bloom
Since days before the Earth was old
And Time began its walk to doom,
The Forests world's bare rock anneal,

Forbidding dusty waste and death
I am the Land's Creator's hold:
I inhale all expiring breath,
And breath out life to bind and heal.

But ax and fire leave me dead.
I know the hate of hands grown bold.
Depart to save your heart-sap's red:
My hate knows neither rest nor weal."

TCTC: About to start FR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DrPaul
Giantfriend


Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 432

Thanks: 3
Thanked 11 Times in 9 Posts


2351 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there is a significant progression between the First and Second Chronicles in the position of female characters.

In the First Chronicles there is a single, male, main protagonist. Also, while there are many strong and interesting female characters, the main heroes of the Land that act throughout the trilogy to resist the Despiser and assist Covenant are male (Mhoram, Foamfollower and Bannor). While Elena is arguably of equal significance to these three males in terms of the narrative, she is also flawed and errs seriously in a way that they don't.

In the Second Chronicles there are two main protagonists (one male, one female) and there are female heroes in The First and Hollian that are of equal stature to any of the male heroes, not to mention the other strong female characters such as Memla. There is also a very powerful ambiguous female character in Infelice.

One other comment that is worth making is that all the unequivocally and irredeemably bad characters in the First and Second Chronicles are males, or are represented as male.

As this is the First and Second Chronicles forum I will forebear from commenting on how this question unfolds in The Last Chronicles.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter
the spider from Mars


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 6595

Thanks: 38
Thanked 43 Times in 42 Posts


21086 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think SRD is essentially chivalrous in his depiction of women ....... probably a reflection of his (age related) unconscious perception of them...... with a peppering of liberal pc thinking thrown in on top.
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch