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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:25 am    Post subject: Proof of God Reply with quote

Proove to me that God exists. If you are so sure then proove it. Faith is not a fact and facts are the only things that will be excepted. So go ahead, I'm waiting.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prove to me that He doesn't.



Anyway, you're missing the point. God used to talk to a select few, the prophets. He used to perform miracles. He sent His Son and Jesus performed miracles. But there is a cost to this new age of grace where by believing in the act of a merciful God that became a man and died and rose again from death. That cost is that He cannot be known. To *know* of His existence would remove *faith* from the equation, which is what the gift of salvation is based on. So I cannot prove His existence.


Still, prove to me that He doesn't. Maybe I'll stop having hope. Would you then be happy?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sheol, I've said this before, and will likely say it again. I don't think those who believe do because of any proof. I think people believe because of personal experience. That experience may be a specific event in their life, or simply the unshakeable feeling of God's presence. Such things are impossible to prove to another person.

But unless someone is being insulting, maybe saying things like, "You're stupid. God exists and you're an idiot for not believing," your attitude isn't necessary. Some believe, and some don't. Live and let live, eh? Heck, even when people DO say things like that to me, I just smile and give an attempt to make them understand that I don't have any personal experience that makes me believe. If they still act that way, I ignore them.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, Sheol, I can't even prove that you exist. I can't see you, I can't hear you; the only evidence I have of your existence is words on a screen, and I can't even call that irrefutable proof. You might be someone other than you claim to be; you might be a bot; the words might even have appeared on the forum through a coincidental confluence of random events (hey, if you believe in evolution, you'll have to admit to that possibility).

I choose, however, to believe the most likely interpretation, as being the most reasonable and the most logical after applying Occam's razor. I choose to believe you're real, and that you're who you say you are.

I choose to believe in God for much the same reasons.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taken from a very crappy movie;


Sheol, do you love your mother?






























Prove it.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't believe, but my understanding from those who do, such as Baradakas and particularly Furls Fire, is that they feel it. They somehow feel the influence of God in their lives, whether anyone else believes it's God's influence or not. That is enough. You believe that God doesn't exist, but you can't prove that he doesn't. Your unprovable atheist belief is neither more nor less valid than Baradakas' or Furls' unprovable Christian belief, or any other beliefs held by anyone else. And unless you are being derided for your atheism, I don't see that it is either necessary or fair to demand proof for anyone's faith.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the words might even have appeared on the forum through a coincidental confluence of random events (hey, if you believe in evolution, you'll have to admit to that possibility).


If you believe in evolution you DO believe that.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sheol wrote:
Proove to me that God exists. If you are so sure then proove it. Faith is not a fact and facts are the only things that will be excepted. So go ahead, I'm waiting.


This is a discussion forum, not a "I'm right and you're wrong prove me otherwise" forum.

Come on now, why do you need to justify your beliefs so much? Are you insecure with them? You act as if the personal viewpoints of Christian Watchers are somehow harming you. This is silly.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't think this is silly, i just want to know. I grew up without going to church, hardly ever hearing anything about God, and I didn't see very many happy times. I guess because I wasn't introduced to God untill I was older, I came to question things and look for answers that are there. I didn't didn't have a god to give credit to all the time. Life worked without God in it. I was born with the choice to believe in what ever I wanted, my parents gave that to me, I have been an athiest as long as I can remember. I don't know why people believe in God. I know why I don't believe. I want to know to know what makes you believe. (that would have been a better beginning to the topic)
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sheol wrote:
I want to know to know what makes you believe.


Are you asking me, specifically? I'm an atheist, like you. I can't answer for theists, just as I can't answer for any atheist. It's all deeply-rooted, deeply engrained. I think Fist summed it up nicely:

Fist and Faith wrote:
Sheol, I've said this before, and will likely say it again. I don't think those who believe do because of any proof. I think people believe because of personal experience. That experience may be a specific event in their life, or simply the unshakeable feeling of God's presence. Such things are impossible to prove to another person.


Just as you have said, Sheol, because you were raised the way you were and grew up in the environment you did, you came to your chosen beliefs. Do you think you might be a Christian today had you been raised in a Christian household? Before you say no, consider that someone being raised as a Christian and switching to atheism is very rare.

If you still don't understand why people believe in God, then maybe someone like Furls or Zeph or Barad could personally tell you why they believe, if you're interested.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But what makes you believe spacificly. Was there a time you can pinpoint exactly when things changed for you. Like ascending to a higher level of belief.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Er, I don't believe. Or are you asking me why I'm an atheist? A long time ago, I would have written an essay about why I thought God didn't exist and I would've given a thousand examples, so I felt justified in my beliefs. Now it's not about why at all. It's about comfort. I simply feel more comfortable being an atheist than a theist. If I felt better about being a theist, I'd be one tomorrow. Both place an equal amount of faith in an unproven notion. It wouldn’t be a hard switch.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I can't pinpoint some specific time that I decided that god, at least as the christians percieve him to be, didn't exist. It was a gradual change, and one I didn't notice until after it had happened. Primarily though, I think it was my love of logic and rationality that precluded "faith".

As is probably the case with many people who who come to that conclusion, I, like Lord Foul, went through a stage of serious atheism, where I would take great delight in arguing the question, and pointing out all the many inconsistencies.

Eventually, I realised this was identical to the position of the theists, just from the other side of it. Nowdays, I'm happy to leave it at the point that nobody knows, or is ever likely to...at least while alive.

As was said, there can be no proof. Either way.
That doesn't worry me. My intellect leans toward oblivion, and in the meanwhile, I've found a religion that amuses me. What more can I ask?

I don't particularly care if I'm wrong and the christians are right. I'll make my case and take my lumps like a big boy.

Edge-- I applaud your sentiments, but I don't think that applying Occam's Razor can lead to positing god. (not that that's necessarily the way you came to the conclusion, but you seem to imply it.)

...Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps it can. It may be the simplest explanation after all, but it's a simple explanation that begs many questions of great complexity, and I'm not sure that that was the application old William of Occam had in mind Wink

For anyone who is interested, I strongly recommend a book called Knowledge of Angels by Jill Paton Walsh. Truly awesome.

(EDIT) I should just point out that this book is both an excellent novel and an attempt to refute god through logical argument. Christians may not want to read it unless their faith is up for the test. (Don't want to upset anyone accidentally here Smile )

Peace
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, it's just a feeling, or perhaps a lack of a feeling. I was raised supposedly to believe in the Christian God, but I don't. I feel no indication of God's presence, but nor do I feel strongly that he doesn't exist. I don't know and I don't care.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CovenantJr wrote:
I don't believe, but my understanding from those who do, such as Baradakas and particularly Furls Fire, is that they feel it. They somehow feel the influence of God in their lives, whether anyone else believes it's God's influence or not. That is enough. You believe that God doesn't exist, but you can't prove that he doesn't. Your unprovable atheist belief is neither more nor less valid than Baradakas' or Furls' unprovable Christian belief, or any other beliefs held by anyone else. And unless you are being derided for your atheism, I don't see that it is either necessary or fair to demand proof for anyone's faith.

I've never seen my beliefs as being the same type as the beliefs of those who do believe in a god. To me, the question of whether or not a god exists is irrelevant - since there is no evidence in either direction, it is an interesting philosophical concept but not really worth taking too seriously.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So does that mean you're also of the "don't know, don't care" school?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, my belief is that the question isn't relevant to our lives, but at the same time, if I had to make a choice I would say there was no god. I am an atheist, but don't think it matters.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats pretty much how I feel about it. it's not relevant to my life. I make my choices on how to act from a personally derived ethical system of what I consider to be "right" or "good".

I don't require someone to set that system out arbitrarily. Or for there to be some over-riding purpose for me to act that way. I follow the dictates of my own consciousness, for reasons I consider to be good.

Nothing else is necessary.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everbody, and especially Sheol, I can relate to and sort of understand every single one of your posts, and I feel that I have been on both sides at one time or another. I was raised my entire life by religious fanatics-you might say. At times it was sweet and fulfilling. At other times it was confusing and hateful. I have seen both ends of the religious spectrum.
At this point and for a long time now, I have reached a plateau where after years of experiences and studies, finally shutting it all out and just listening to my inner self or whatever is there.
We all want to KNOW the TRUTH. It has always bothered me that if God cared about sincerety surely He would talk to me somehow -reveal Himself to me somehow-teach me somehow....
That is why I think that if you question whether He exists or not, He is NOT offended. You have a much better chance of finding out than those who just accept the idea of God and fake the rest.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to know the Truth, not accepting fakery. That is where we all are probably. Are we read to KNOW for sure one way or the other???Perhaps if we are, then this is when HE will at last make Himself known.
Question everything. Look for the Truth. Accept no immitations or fakery. If He does manifest Himself to us in any way, we will know then. When we are faced with the REAL we can no longer doubt.
This does not mean then that He will tell us everything at once.
I wonder also....why people who say they do not believe there is a God are so worried about it.
If one is so sure He does not exist, why worry about it. Let the poor fools who do believe figure it out for themselves. Shouldn't it be those who do believe who want to talk about it? But then the unbelievers do not want to hear the same old stories and history. They want something that will touch the places in them that desperately need touched. Real guidance--not guesswork. Real answers--not speculation or "do as I say, not as I do". Real love--not a cheap imitation. Real Truth that will stand the test of time--not rules and regulations that change with whoever is on the various thrones at any given time.

Forgive me if I sound cynical. I have a lot of left over anger at religion for all the evil it has done instead of good, although it is still a medium through which people are still finding their way to the Truth. And the TRUTH is not the person behind the podium or many times what they may be saying. The TRUTH is hidden in you. Jesus Himself said "the Kingdom of Heaven is Within You."

So then, we continue searching, seeking, listening, and I hope being kind and considerate of our fellowman while they also seek.
And we ARE all seeking, whether we all admit it or not. That is why this thread was started.
I wonder what it is exactly that God would have to do to win your heart? or to get your attention. or to convince you that He is exists. I often think on this and say to myself this or that would make me sure. But How about the next day after you have had your proof, your guarantee??? Do you hold that up in front of you no matter what else may unfavorably happen? Do hold on to that one thing for dear life no matter what else you have to endure because you KNOW, no matter what anyone else has found out yet? Or do you try to explain to them and hope they see......
No. Each one has to find out for themselves I think.
WE all have this unbelief and doubt and questioning to go through. And is THIS what will cause us to FIND Him if He indeed is there. Shall we seek on then? Wouldn't it be wiser to go on? to keep on seeking? If God exists, why would He not want us to know. Why would He not reveal Himself to us in some way and give us the opportunity to accept or reject Him?

These are my questions and I have many more. I do not mean any disrespect at all, and if God is the Knower of Hearts then He knows this.
I do believe. But I do question. He Himself said to SEEK. So I am a seeker.
I wish I had a pat answer for all who want to know, but I maintain that questioning or even saying you do not believe at all is the first step to finding the TRUTH. Accept no lies or half truths. SEEK and never give up. And maybe the proof is right in front of our faces,--forest for the trees.....
Paradigm shift? I don't know. I know that I want Him to be real. I know that I dont buy the one religion sells. The Real One's characteristics are unmistakeable and unchangeable, not some angry, mean, humanized characture waiting to smite us at every turn and then one day you are gonna bust hell wide open!!!!! No.
There is something buried under all this crap and we who WANT it are going to find it.
forgive me for going on and on. But thanks for motivating me to write this to myself and get on with it.
No offense meant to anyone.
Peace.
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