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The Bible - A Good Read, Or Useless Babble?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:22 pm    Post subject: The Bible - A Good Read, Or Useless Babble? Reply with quote

Another objective topic. Razz

I've read all the bible in the past... I admit... I'm not ashamed or anything... and to be honest, some of it was interesting... but the reason I always thought the parts I liked were interesting is because I didn't really take it seriously... I felt as if I were reading another fiction... With as much truth to it as Harry Potter, or Lord of the Rings... I always thought, (More so with the earlier books of the Old Testement) that the writers were fiction writers... certainly Moses I thought was... who I believe wrote the first five books of the bible...

(edited for content Wink )

There's my beliefs... what are your own? Do you think that all the bible is true?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I don't think all, perhaps even most, of the bible is true.

However, that's not to say that it's not a good read. For one thing, it's the most broadly accepted view of christianity (supposedly christians should all accept it) and for another, it contains many sensible rules for living a "good" life.

History is written from the perspective of the winners. Look at it as informative propaganda, with some valid points. It certainly won't hurt anyone to read it.

If you're doing it, check out the Gnostic Gospels as well, books of the bible which the church, over the centuries, have edited out because they didn't match Dogma.

Also, bear in mind that there are many mistranslations, accidental and deliberate, in the modern bible.

The underlying message of love is a good one. I just don't like the way it was spread, and interpreted. Remember that people who write anything usually have an agenda. In this case, the propagation of christianity.

As I said though, it also contains much important moral and philosophical advice, if you can seperate it from the hype. I just don't like the reasoning behind it: i.e. "god said so."

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, Darth. This is a topic I had hoped you would never touch on. More than religious faith, more than anything else that makes up my belief, the Holy Bible is the absolute cornerstone of my faith. To put it simply, you can read the Bible over and over, but without the Holy Spirit it reads just like a peice of fiction. The Bible holds key secrets to prophecies still to come, and it single-handedly foretold the fall of Rome, of the futures of the ten lost tribes of Israel, it even foretells events unfolding even now. The only problem is that unless you are a theological scholar, or you have an extreme amount of patience, you WILL NEVER SEE THE TRUTH!

Btw, Avatar, it has never been proven that the Gnostic Gospels were, in their entirety, ever a part of the Bible (no Bible exists complete with these "gospels" to prove it)

The Bible, if read and STUDIED correctly, proves that Jesus was in fact a descendant of David, it proves everything happening in our day and age were foretold hundreds and thousands of years ago, yet no one will ever admit it. Then someone comes along and calls it rubbish and inane, even blatant falseness, after I have studied its truths for over five years!

You are my friend Darth, so I just want you to know I was insulted by this post, and although these were your opinions and beliefs, I feel you could have expressed them in a less insulting manner.

-B
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baradakas wrote:
The Bible, if read and STUDIED correctly, proves that Jesus was in fact a descendant of David, it proves everything happening in our day and age were foretold hundreds and thousands of years ago, yet no one will ever admit it.


You know, it's very hard to admit something's true when no one offers you proof. I'd like to know how exactly the Bible proves what it proves. Details, not statements. I'm sure you have details, Barad. I'm just saying I'd be interested in hearing them.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main problem, Foul, is that I post at work, and I don't have a Bible handy here. Razz
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bah, thought you memorized the thing! Wink Let me know when you sneak a Bible in there, and then you can enlighten me. Mind you, I'm not out to disprove or argue whatever you'll lay down on the table. I'm just interested in hearing your findings on the Bible and why you think it's true.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good and Evil

What benefit is there in trying to cast doubt on another's belief in hope?



(this is in regards to the original poster)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My doubt's not about benefit at all; it's about my own personal beliefs. I simply doubt what the Bible says. Barad doesn't. I'm interested in hearing his perspective--getting insights I wouldn't normally get from myself. I'm not personally attacking anyone's beliefs here. There's far better, less destructive things to do.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baradakas wrote:
Btw, Avatar, it has never been proven that the Gnostic Gospels were, in their entirety, ever a part of the Bible (no Bible exists complete with these "gospels" to prove it)


Fair enough, but then the bible is a compilation. None, or very few, of the original texts appeared in conjunction with each other. They were written at various times, and "compiled" at various other times. No proof exists either way.

ZefaLefeLaH wrote:
What benefit is there in trying to cast doubt on another's belief in hope?


I think that Zef raises an important point over here, and for me especially, it's something I often think of, and perhaps we all should.

Although of course, it is not the intention of any of us Unbelievers to change anyones mind about these matters, we must realise that, unlikely as it is, it is still possible. And as a possibility, it possesses a certain inherent danger. Not for us, but for someone whose mind we accidentally change.

I've personally seen the havoc that a collapsing belief system can cause to someone whose held those beliefs dear throughout their lives, and it's not something I would wish on anyone. That's why, in these posts, you'll rarely hear (see?) me arguing the logical aspects of belief. Faith and logic must, per force, operate independantly of each other. Faith must supercede all reason, transcend all logic.

When it really comes down to it, the only answer a theist can offer is "Because I Believe!" And for me, thats good enough. That's why I tend to try and stick only to moral and ethical implications.

Everybody needs hope. Christians, agnostics, atheists, we all have to have hope in something.

Keep Faith
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baradakas wrote:
Wow, Darth. This is a topic I had hoped you would never touch on. More than religious faith, more than anything else that makes up my belief, the Holy Bible is the absolute cornerstone of my faith. To put it simply, you can read the Bible over and over, but without the Holy Spirit it reads just like a peice of fiction. The Bible holds key secrets to prophecies still to come, and it single-handedly foretold the fall of Rome, of the futures of the ten lost tribes of Israel, it even foretells events unfolding even now. The only problem is that unless you are a theological scholar, or you have an extreme amount of patience, you WILL NEVER SEE THE TRUTH!

Btw, Avatar, it has never been proven that the Gnostic Gospels were, in their entirety, ever a part of the Bible (no Bible exists complete with these "gospels" to prove it)

The Bible, if read and STUDIED correctly, proves that Jesus was in fact a descendant of David, it proves everything happening in our day and age were foretold hundreds and thousands of years ago, yet no one will ever admit it. Then someone comes along and calls it rubbish and inane, even blatant falseness, after I have studied its truths for over five years!

You are my friend Darth, so I just want you to know I was insulted by this post, and although these were your opinions and beliefs, I feel you could have expressed them in a less insulting manner.

-B


What prove to you have that any of this stuff actually happened? Confused

I'm sorry that I offended you... but I could say the same about your post... It's offensive to my beliefs... I find myself sickened when it comes to much of the bible... that's just me. I'm not trying to alter your belief in any way... on the contrary, I'm glad that you can feel the beautiful faith that I've since lost. I would like to have it back in some ways... but just don't feel it. *sigh*

Feel free to delete or edit this topic as you see fit Barad.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually... I read though my post again... (I was in a foul mood yesterday) and it does seem offensive... I should have been nicer... delete this thread Barad, please? Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I firmly believe in freedom of expression, Darth, even more so when the topic is theology/philosophy. You have every right to express yourself, and quite honestly, though I might have felt insulted by your post, it wasn't all that inflammatory and it is a pretty good topic. Therefore I will not be deleting this post.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baradakas wrote:
I firmly believe in freedom of expression, Darth, even more so when the topic is theology/philosophy. You have every right to express yourself, and quite honestly, though I might have felt insulted by your post, it wasn't all that inflammatory and it is a pretty good topic. Therefore I will not be deleting this post.


I think I make some pretty good topics here... The only problem I have is I can't express my opinions as excellently and calmly as... Avatar for example... Maybe i should check with him before I post Wink Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar:
I agree with most of your previous post.

And Zeph's statement of the benefit of casting doubt on one's hope is a good one.

I used to argue vehemently regarding the bible.

I've largely stopped, simply because few minds have been changed.

Certainly not mine.

But when statements are made about the bible as truth and prophecy being truly spoken, then this book can (and should) be treated as any other.

And held up to an historical light.

And in my opinion found lacking.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thoughts exactly, dromond. Tried to say it that way, but, knowing me, it probably came off as an attack.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thoughts exactly, dromond. Tried to say it that way, but, knowing me, it probably came off as an attack. Again, sorry if it did.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If any of you are looking for proof that events mentioned in the Bible actually happened...try some (non-Christian) ancient historians...the Romans certainly did their fair share of documenting history...I recommend Josephus (the stuff's thick, but man is there some valuable information in it).
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The evidence is overwhelming that Josephus' mention of Jesus is a forgery, a later interpolation.

And the Roman's record keeping and documentation of events are well known-
I don't know of any mention in their records of Jesus.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 3:34 pm    Post subject: Oh wow... Reply with quote

Peace y'all. Love your neighbor as yourself. Bible defenders, start turning those cheeks :) Bible attackers, try to be a little empathetic... remember that those who believe that the bible is true are also thinking, rational human beings. I mean, you can push it back more, and start attacking fundamental values of humanity. Proving that jesus christ existed doesn't have anything to do with his message (which by the way I'm a fan of. Love your neighbor as yourself, don't hurt people, that kind of thing I'm in to. Although I'm not a christian). Try proving that Good exists at all. Or proving that the physical world exists in the first place! Yech....debates on the history of the bible never go anywhere or prove anything. Why don't we try to debate the content instead of the fact?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jemcheeta:

Being the peacekeeper is a wonderful and mostly thankless job.

So I thank you. Smile

But really, this thread is about a subject that gaurantees some remarkable comments.

I'm not a bible attacker. (At least not in this thread.)

I've no problem with another's belief.

And I've nothing but respect for Iryssa's posts and views.( And yes, I've read most if not all of her posts since she joined)

(Peace, Iryssa!) Smile

I don't understand why any post that shows Christianity in a less than favorable light is viewed as an attack.

It's not the only religion in the world.

I was recommended Flavius Josephus as an extra-biblical source of biblical events and, being somewhat familiar with his writings, I disagreed.

I was responding directly to her offer.(Had I agreed, this post and several others would not exist.)

I was speaking mostly to those who read this and are still up in the air as to their Life's meaning and don't think one explanation covers it all.

Nothing wrong with a little debate. Smile
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