Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

If There Is A Hell, We're All Going To It.
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Close
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Iryssa
Bloodguard

Female
Joined: 24 Mar 2004
Posts: 922

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: The great white north *grin*
2816 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*grin* no problem...I've always liked that verse "Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do"...it's sort of a more eloquent way of saying "you gotta walk the walk not just talk the talk" Wink
_________________
"A choice made freely is stronger than one compelled"
- Stephen R. Donaldson's The Wounded Land

http://www.xanga.com/Iryssa
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 55841

Thanks: 72
Thanked 160 Times in 157 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
23433 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iryssa wrote:
..."you gotta walk the walk not just talk the talk" Wink


Indeed. Now if only more people did! Confused

--A
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Iryssa
Bloodguard

Female
Joined: 24 Mar 2004
Posts: 922

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: The great white north *grin*
2816 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No kidding...There's something at the beginning of the DC Talk* song "What if I Stumble?"...it's a guy talking on a radio, and he says "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, and then walk out the door, and deny Him with their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelieveable."
Whether or not he's right about it being "the greatest single cause of atheism," it's definitely a large reason for it...It's quite frustrating, actually. I think I mentioned in another post how the Crusades still affect people's view of Christians. That may stick with us forever...not to mention all the more individual examples that the "unbelieving world" sees daily...I'm quite ashamed to say that I've done things that probably made the people who saw them go "yup, just another hypocrite..." *shakes head* well...live and learn, I suppose...I just wish I hadn't been too hard-headed to learn the easy way...



* A Christian band, perhaps THE Christian band that made Christian music as popular with Christian teens as it is today...they wrote the song "Jesus Freak" and helped put together the books "Jesus Freaks" and whatever the second one is called...I think I mentioned the books in another post.
_________________
"A choice made freely is stronger than one compelled"
- Stephen R. Donaldson's The Wounded Land

http://www.xanga.com/Iryssa
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 55841

Thanks: 72
Thanked 160 Times in 157 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
23433 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iryssa wrote:
...I just wish I hadn't been too hard-headed to learn the easy way...


The difference between the hard way and the easy way is simple. The easy way is like being told something, the hard way is being told to find out for yourself. With the easy way, you may be aware of whatever it is. With the hard way, you'll actually KNOW it.

I know which one I think is best for people, intellectually, spiritually, and emotionally.

--A
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Iryssa
Bloodguard

Female
Joined: 24 Mar 2004
Posts: 922

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: The great white north *grin*
2816 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*nods* good point...and when I think about it, it wasn't as though I wasn't ready for those lessons when I learned them, the hard way though it was...it's kinda like finding the Wards in the right order, actually...I learned one lesson, which prepared me for the next, and so on and so forth...
Anyway...totally off-topic...*grin*

So...how 'bout that devil guy? Wink
_________________
"A choice made freely is stronger than one compelled"
- Stephen R. Donaldson's The Wounded Land

http://www.xanga.com/Iryssa
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 55841

Thanks: 72
Thanked 160 Times in 157 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
23433 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iryssa wrote:
*nods* good point...and when I think about it, it wasn't as though I wasn't ready for those lessons when I learned them, the hard way though it was...it's kinda like finding the Wards in the right order, actually...I learned one lesson, which prepared me for the next, and so on and so forth...


Yeah, that may well be a part of it too.

Iryssa wrote:
So...how 'bout that devil guy? Wink


Aah, a tough one. Even the christians themselves have had great difficulty with this concept over the centuries. As I've mentioned somewhere, it was only fairly late in the progression of christianity that Lucifer became the great "Adversary".

And even so, it could be argued, (and I have) that christianity needs the devil. Otherwise what point is there? There has to be a stick for the carrot to be effective. Someone, (I think it was Satre) once said that if the devil was ever to defeat god, he would have to assume the attributes of divinity. Along the same lines, if there was no devil, christianity would have to invent him.

Of course, it's raised a number of problems, such as how a just and loving god could permit such a thing, and why there is evil at all if god is really in charge, but personally, I see Satan as the ultimate fall-guy. If you take the biblical standpoint, he doesn't have a chance. He's trying to beat a stacked deck from the outset, becuase according to christians, it's inevitable that god will win.

I prefer the Judaic approach to evil, which basically states that "evil" isn't a "thing" or a person, or an external force or entity, but that instead it arises from the actions of people. That makes a great deal more sense to me than imagining someone sitting behind the scenes and manipulating events. I mean, why would he bother, if there was no chance of eventual victory?

I think it was Heinlein who said: "God has millions of salaried staff. The opposition has none."

--Avatar
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
onewyteduck
Lady Fowl the Motherducker

Female
Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 5453

Thanks: 3
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

Location: On your wall!
1165 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 I Love KW1 Kresh1 US Flag


PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not only am I sure I'm going there, but I already have a plan in place to take over the joint. Twisted Evil
_________________
Be kind to your web-footed friends, for a duck may be somebody's mother.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Baradakas
Lord of Muffins

Male
Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Posts: 1896

Thanks: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Des Moines, Iowa
197 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Lomillialor1 I Love KW1 Soaring Woodhelvin


PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iryssa said:

Quote:
On the use of the Bible for this topic...Careful about that, Darth...If you read the New Testament, you find that it's not exactly as you describe. I know I've said it before, but I'll say it again:
Salvation, according to Biblical teachings, comes from accepting Christ as Savior. Works come from salvation; salvation does not come from works.


This is a fundamental misunderstanding about the New Testament, the "Nailed to the Cross" belief. Belief in Jesus is not enough, for Jesus Himself said, "Why do you say unto me, Lord, Lord, but do not do the things I say?" And later, (this is not an exact quote, sorry), He says, For many will come before me, saying they have preached in my name, cast out demons in my name, and I will turn them away saying, Begone, you who practice lawlessness!

Jesus did not nail the Ten Commandments to the cross! When asked by a young man how best to gain eternal life, Jesus said, "Follow the Ten Commandments."

His own disciples stated, "How can you have salvation without works?"

Sorry, I will post more later on this, I don't have enough time right now.

-B
_________________
"Fortunate circumstances do not equate to high ideals."

"Mostly muffins sir."- My answer in response to the question posed by the officer, "Son, do you have anything on you I should know about?"

His response: "Holy $&!^. He's not kidding! Look at all these muffins!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Edge
full of it


Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 2945

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts

Location: South Africa
360 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baradakas wrote:
iryssa said:

Quote:
On the use of the Bible for this topic...Careful about that, Darth...If you read the New Testament, you find that it's not exactly as you describe. I know I've said it before, but I'll say it again:
Salvation, according to Biblical teachings, comes from accepting Christ as Savior. Works come from salvation; salvation does not come from works.


This is a fundamental misunderstanding about the New Testament, the "Nailed to the Cross" belief. Belief in Jesus is not enough, for Jesus Himself said, "Why do you say unto me, Lord, Lord, but do not do the things I say?" And later, (this is not an exact quote, sorry), He says, For many will come before me, saying they have preached in my name, cast out demons in my name, and I will turn them away saying, Begone, you who practice lawlessness!

Jesus did not nail the Ten Commandments to the cross! When asked by a young man how best to gain eternal life, Jesus said, "Follow the Ten Commandments."

His own disciples stated, "How can you have salvation without works?"

Sorry, I will post more later on this, I don't have enough time right now.

-B


Not to be picky or pedantic, but I think the part you misquoted is quite important. It's not "Begone, you who who practise lawlessness", but "Depart from Me, I never knew you".

I think it's an important distinction, because in the actual quote He seems in fact to be saying that all those good works are meaningless if they don't arise from a personal knowledge of Him.

I'm not saying (and I don't believe) that you can have salvation without works - to quote a wise man, "It's not that easy" - but rather, that good works without salvation are just not enough.
_________________
Check out my digital art at www.brian.co.za
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Phoogle Map
Baradakas
Lord of Muffins

Male
Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Posts: 1896

Thanks: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Des Moines, Iowa
197 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Lomillialor1 I Love KW1 Soaring Woodhelvin


PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Edge, I knew I was making a mess of that quote, and I couldn't agree with you more!!!
_________________
"Fortunate circumstances do not equate to high ideals."

"Mostly muffins sir."- My answer in response to the question posed by the officer, "Son, do you have anything on you I should know about?"

His response: "Holy $&!^. He's not kidding! Look at all these muffins!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Iryssa
Bloodguard

Female
Joined: 24 Mar 2004
Posts: 922

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: The great white north *grin*
2816 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amen, Baradakas and Edge.

*grin* I think that's one of the reasons I've always loved TC...his "it's not that easy" thing...I can relate.
_________________
"A choice made freely is stronger than one compelled"
- Stephen R. Donaldson's The Wounded Land

http://www.xanga.com/Iryssa
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 55841

Thanks: 72
Thanked 160 Times in 157 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
23433 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edge wrote:
I think it's an important distinction, because in the actual quote He seems in fact to be saying that all those good works are meaningless if they don't arise from a personal knowledge of Him.


I assume that you mean "meaningless in terms of getting into heaven" though, rather than meaningless in and of themselves.

Afterall, I'm sure even christ would rather people did "good works" outside of (or without) a relationship with god, than not do any good works at all, whether they claimed that relationship or not.

--A
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Edge
full of it


Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 2945

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts

Location: South Africa
360 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Edge wrote:
I think it's an important distinction, because in the actual quote He seems in fact to be saying that all those good works are meaningless if they don't arise from a personal knowledge of Him.


I assume that you mean "meaningless in terms of getting into heaven" though, rather than meaningless in and of themselves.

Afterall, I'm sure even christ would rather people did "good works" outside of (or without) a relationship with god, than not do any good works at all, whether they claimed that relationship or not.

--A


I think I could have used a better word than 'meaningless'... possibly 'insufficient' would be more accurate. Also, in the context of that passage: it's speaking very specifically of people who do things in Jesus' name, i.e. claiming His authority, but actually have no relationship with Him.

I certainly don't mean to give the impression that 'doing good' is irrelevant, or something that Christ pays no attention to. For one thing, the Bible states pretty clearly that those who've never heard of Him will in fact be judged worthy of admittance to God's presence (or not), at least partly on the basis of their actions.
_________________
Check out my digital art at www.brian.co.za
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Phoogle Map
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 55841

Thanks: 72
Thanked 160 Times in 157 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
23433 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edge wrote:
I certainly don't mean to give the impression that 'doing good' is irrelevant, or something that Christ pays no attention to.


No worries, that's what I assumed you meant, just wanted to be sure.

Edge wrote:
For one thing, the Bible states pretty clearly that those who've never heard of Him will in fact be judged worthy of admittance to God's presence (or not), at least partly on the basis of their actions.


Thats something that I've always thought "good" about the whole thing. The only part of it that I dislike is that, IIRC, it refers specifically to people who have no knowledge of god/christ etc. In other words, ignorance is the "mitigating factor".

It assumes that those people, had they been exposed to gods message, would have become followers. I'd be a lot happier if it included those who disagree with that message (or at least parts of it, (perhaps the parts altered or interpreted by man for their own agenda's) ) and yet still live a life in accordance with the basic ideal.



--Avatar
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Edge
full of it


Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 2945

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts

Location: South Africa
360 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My personal interpretation is that it's not a simple question of people who have 'heard of' Christ, the gospel, etc., but also includes those who for whatever reason haven't been given an accurate understanding of who God actually is. Or perhaps more to the point, those who have been taught, either literally or by bad examples of 'Christians', a completely wrong idea about God.

And I certainly don't believe God's going to be throwing anyone out of His presence just because of disagreements about doctrine, or questioning certain points. If that were the case, Heaven would be a lonely place indeed. Wink
_________________
Check out my digital art at www.brian.co.za
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Phoogle Map
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 55841

Thanks: 72
Thanked 160 Times in 157 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
23433 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that's an interpretation that I'm pretty comfortable with, and god would certainly rise in my estimation if that proves to be the case Wink

Edge wrote:
And I certainly don't believe God's going to be throwing anyone out of His presence just because of disagreements about doctrine, or questioning certain points. If that were the case, Heaven would be a lonely place indeed. Wink


I agree. I once read a fantastic quote, which said:

Quote:
The technicalities of Religion have no place in the minds of God


That's sort of the way I like to think that a "supreme being" would look at things.

In essence, I don't have a problem hypothesising the existence of some "force" that effects the universe, many such forces are known to exist, and doubtless there are many more that we are not yet aware of.

It's the "spin" that humanity has tried to put on it which offends me. And if god exists, and is truly as he's explained to be, and there's any justice, I hope that a lot of it is offensive to him as well. Surely he'd be sickened by the atrocities so often perpetrated in his name?

--A
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Baradakas
Lord of Muffins

Male
Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Posts: 1896

Thanks: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Des Moines, Iowa
197 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Lomillialor1 I Love KW1 Soaring Woodhelvin


PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My personal interpretation is that it's not a simple question of people who have 'heard of' Christ, the gospel, etc., but also includes those who for whatever reason haven't been given an accurate understanding of who God actually is. Or perhaps more to the point, those who have been taught, either literally or by bad examples of 'Christians', a completely wrong idea about God.


Another common misinterpretation. Not that Edge is wrong, but it goes even deeper than that. What we are speaking of is less a personal knowledge of God, more like 'living in the Holy Spirit'. Of the untold millions of christians living today, perhaps 1% (or less) live in said Spirit. That is where the White Throne Judgement comes in. It gives all those who never had the chance to live in the Holy Spirit a second chance.
_________________
"Fortunate circumstances do not equate to high ideals."

"Mostly muffins sir."- My answer in response to the question posed by the officer, "Son, do you have anything on you I should know about?"

His response: "Holy $&!^. He's not kidding! Look at all these muffins!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 55841

Thanks: 72
Thanked 160 Times in 157 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
23433 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baradakas wrote:
It gives all those who never had the chance to live in the Holy Spirit a second chance.


But there's the rub. I don't want to live in the "Holy Spirit". I want to live my life as I always have. Happy in the belief that I live it to the best of my ability, without having to resort to some sort of external validation.

I certainly agree with your estimate that very few of the people who call themselves "christians" actually live lives commensurate with the teachings of god/Jesus.

However, what I'm interested in here, is those who live such lives without having to say that it's because of those teachings. I can't accept that god is petty enough to say that the only way those lives count is if they are lived in the context of what Baradakas refers to as "The Holy Spirit".

All spirits are holy in essence. Mine, yours, everybodies. It's how we use them that determines the "level" of our soul.

--Avatar
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
JemCheeta
All Fettered Up

Male
Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 2010

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts


254 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Oath of Peace1 Covenant's Sword and Plate Armor1 Rubber Duck


PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ignorance being the mitigating factor...
Well, I've got to say, if the message of God, and Jesus et al. is the perfect message, and the one true message and the way of all joy and love and truth etc, wouldn't anyone who didn't follow it, whether or not they chose not to follow it or never learned of it in the first place... couldn't you put everyone in that category?
_________________
It isn't that you couldn't see the forest from the trees, it's just that you've never been out in the woods alone.
-Ben Folds Five, Philosophy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Phoogle Map
The Dreaming
21st Century Schizoid Man

Male
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 1921

Thanks: 1
Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts

Location: Louisville KY
6657 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Free Lunch


PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have any of you read Shaw? He said that "hell is a city much like Seville" His version of Hell was a place that the wicked would want to be. He figured that heaven would be full of all the self righteous jerks of the world. Makes you think eh?

Personally, I like Gaiman's view of Hell in the Sandman. He said that there is no objective being of pure evil who enjoys to torture the wicked, we punish ourselves. The people who go to Hell are the people with too much pride to forgive themselves.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Phoogle Map
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Close All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch