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What are the odds Kerry will try to repeal the Patriot Act?
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What are the odds Kerry will try to repeal the Patriot Act?
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Around the same time hell freezes over
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What's so bad about the Patriot Act?
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Total Votes : 10

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:44 am    Post subject: What are the odds Kerry will try to repeal the Patriot Act? Reply with quote

Well? What do you think.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Patriot Act doesn't bother me but then again I'm not an extremist who wants to murder innocent people either.

If Kerry is elected and attempts to repeal the Act, he will lose political ground - since he voted for it in the first place.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WHat is the Patriot Act?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act

I lean to the side that it's an assault on civil liberties, but I also lean to the side that doesn't care, because it hasn't effected me yet. And it probably never will. Can one lean so much? I guess so!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. To be honest, I think it is necessary.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not going to sound politically informed, because I'll admit I'm not. I'm more informed than the average 19 year old (or like to assume so), but, still.

My liberal tendencies make me feel the Patriot Act is inherently bad (f'ing media), but, despite my predisposition, I can honestly admit I don't know all the details on the Patriot Act, really. Some say it's A, some say it's B. Too much info about Patriot Act + too much college = too busy to figure it all out. So I can't sufficiently judge. Oh well, as long as it doesn't rummage around in my dirty laundry, I have no problem with it.

Loremaster wrote:
Thanks. To be honest, I think it is necessary.


Are you so sure? I mean, yeah, you may be right, but you've just found out about it, right? Have you heard all the perspectives on the Patriot Act? I'd take an objective look (or at least an in-depth one) before passing final judgment. Yeah, I've passed a bit of judgement about the Act myself, but, still, not totally 100% on it.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What upsets me is that, buried deep inside of it, is that it grants the executive branch the power to suspend habeus corpus if you are thought to be a "terrorist". This legislation has already been enforced in the case of Jose Padilla, an american citizen picked up in afghanastan. These citizens lose the right to trial by jury, and are judged in a military court.

That such a flagrant violation of the bill of rights passed congress chills me to the bone.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Foul, I know what it is, I just didn't know the title. I have heard about this for years (just ignored/forgotten the title). I'm older than you and more experienced so don't give me a lecture about passing judgement.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah yes, the older, more experienced! Hail

Alright, sorry! Wasn't lecturing you, gramps. Wink I had no idea you knew about it at all, which accounts for my method of questioning. I thought you were literally responding to it after just a few minutes of reading what I sent. Confusion fixed (I hope).
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's okay, Foul.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, damn. Time for me to eat my own words.

Quote:
# The USA PATRIOT Act is not why Jose Padilla and Yaser Hamdi are being held; they are being held as enemy combatants, a term from the World War II era. The U.S. government is relying on a 1942 Supreme Court decision, Ex parte Quirin, to hold them indefinitely, without being able to meet with attorneys, friends, or family. (Yaser Hamdi was released and deported to Saudi Arabia after renouncing his alleged U.S. citizenship and agreeing to travel restrictions.) Also, the Act does not take any steps to allow intelligence gathering at religious events; nor does the act does allow surreptitious warrants to be obtained on the Attorney General's approval.


Well, crap. That certainly takes some steam out of me.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I'm unable to vote as I don't know the likelyhood of him wanting to repeal it, but to me, it grants the governemnt far too much power under a shaky premise. Rather, it doesn't seem to have the checks and balances required.

The existence of the act serves to render such assumptions about people acceptable. It would be easy to perform some action under the auspices of such an act, and then afterwards say, "Well, we thought we were right at the time".

PS. Baradakas, if you want to move this to the Think-Tank, feel free.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoops, I spend so much time moving back and forth between those two forums I lose track of which one is which sometimes. I undoubtedly meant to put it in the think tank, I am just a little foolish.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't worry about it dude. Baradakas will cheerfully move it, he's usually in on thursdays.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll move it Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Furls Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think, and really I hope, Kerry won't try to repeal it, if elected. I feel he might want to tinker with it a bit, as there are some concerns on the scope of it, perhaps remove a bit or two from it, but it does have merit, it just gives a bit too much leeway that could be abused.

A second layer that goes further, could be very scary, and the beginning of "1984"
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Kerry's made it pretty clear that he supports the Patriot Act.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sindatur wrote:
A second layer that goes further, could be very scary, and the beginning of "1984"


I think that this is perhaps the most valid concern. Leaving aside the question of how far it does actually infringe on civil liberties, the simple fact that there are people who feel that it does, suggests that in some ways at least, it is such an infringement.

Once any infringement of civil liberties is accepted by the majority, no matter how minor an infringement, it becomes easier and easier to institute more "radical" policies based on that acceptance.

Far too many democratic societies, while not necessarily "police" states, are at least "nanny" states. Where the government takes it's mandate of protection to imply far more than it actually does.

As Sindatur says, we may be hovering on the brink of "1984". Afterall, (a question raised in another thread), how do such states come into being? Surely it is by the incremental removal of civil liberties, always for the best of reasons, until it becomes such an acceptable state of affairs that people no longer notice.

Once this happens, it is easy to slowly add more restrictions, each one reasonable seeming on it's own, until we wake one morning and realise that the rights we did have, are superceded by new rules, and always for "our protection".

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is very frightening that we have a man in our highest possible office who believes that "there should be limits to freedom". Personally, I have to go with Ben Franklin on this one. I will never exchange freedom for safety. Or for the more whimsically minded, "Better to die on your feet than live on your knees. I always thought that was an old Klingon proverb, may be older though.
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