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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said, Avatar. Good Post






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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

things aren't evil. not music, books, rocks, bricks or whatever. people are evil. if a bunch of satanists start WWJD bracelets and using them in rituals, would we declare the bracelets as evil and start burning them? simpleminded beliefs fit simpleminded people. it's great to have a short, such as metal=evil. stops anyone from having to actually be nice and reach out and, i dunno, minister? easier to rant.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed. It's all too easy to blame one concrete thing as being evil, without having to consider the implications behind it. As Dennis says, people are "evil", not objects.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i always get a kick out of "church-going" folk railing against a movie or book because someone did bad after watching/reading. as if sitting them in a room with nothing but a bible would cure all of this. i love horror movies and some hardcore. haven't chopped anyone up. shortcuts.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dennisrwood wrote:
things aren't evil. not music, books, rocks, bricks or whatever. people are evil.


Absolutely 100% spot-on!

And of course, the corollary is just as true - I have to grit my teeth when I hear people talking about 'Christian books', 'Christian music', etc.

For example, how does a book become a 'Christian book'? Does it have to repent of its' sins? Confused

The point is, as DRW said, no thing of itself (be it an expression of music, literature, art, whatever) is inherently good or evil. People are good or evil, according to the choices they make.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:21 King James Version


My, my.

I am going to jump into this one I guess.

Having been raised by religious psychotics, I am in a very spiritually tenuous place.

I never feel "okay" about my place with God because I have had the ugliest parts of Christianity (literally) pounded into me since birth. The only time I feel moderately "okay" about Christianity is when I'm reading C.S. Lewis, who is so incredibly rational, intelligent, and non-punitive in his presentation.

The majority of my family thinks I am a heretic because I do not believe that homosexuals should be stoned in the streets, and interracial or interreligious marriages don't bother me in the least as long as no one's being mistreated in any way (which is exactly the way I feel about ANY kind of marriage).

Also, I am tattooed, which is certainly a mark of certain deportation to hell. When my Aunt told me that, I told her that I didn't want to go to heaven if God was that narrow minded.

That didn't go over very well.

So, I do my best. I can't abandon Christianity. Yet, I often feel like I'm not acceptable or lovable to God because of my early training. I ward off those emotions because I do not TRUST emotions. I try to remain rational--and embrace the rationality of the God I see in the works of C.S. Lewis, who is my hero.

The verse I guoted above comforts me, usually, when I think of all the cruel, heartless, vicious, nasty people who proclaim themselves "Christians."

I hope to be acceptable to God when the time comes--and if I'm not, there isn't a whole lot I can do about it.

Is there?

To me, the ultimate evil is cruelty and rejecting others' rights to live and be happy. The real Christian, in my book, is the one who behaves as Christ would have behaved in his place. And try as I might, the only people I really saw Jesus come down hard on were the Religious Fanatics of his own time....Hmmmm. Makes you think, doesn't it?

And that's my two cents on this.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChoChiyo wrote:
The only time I feel moderately "okay" about Christianity is when I'm reading C.S. Lewis, who is so incredibly rational, intelligent, and non-punitive in his presentation.
Have you read the Stephen C. McKinney Memorial Thread in the Hall of Gifts?

ChoChiyo wrote:
Also, I am tattooed, which is certainly a mark of certain deportation to hell. When my Aunt told me that, I told her that I didn't want to go to heaven if God was that narrow minded.
Very Happy I've posted this before. There's a fantasy book, The Kundalini Equation, by Steven Barnes, where one character is doing a lot of searching, questioning, etc, about life, God, etc. During an appearance, a woman in the audience asked, "Mr. Patanjal, how does it feel to know that you are going to burn in hell?" And he answered:
Quote:
"Madame, the divine force which you believe in and the one in which I believe are obviously two different beings. If in a sincere quest for understanding and knowledge I have erred, I am deeply sorry, and await a sign from the Almighty that will teach me the error of my ways. I simply believe in the virtues of sincere intellectual curiosity. An eagerness to use the mind and feelings that God himself gave me to inquire into mysteries rather than merely accept the explanation othat other men have passed down through the years. If for this I will be cast into fires everlasting, then God is indeed the malign thug of which Mark Twain wrote, and his hell could certainly be no more insufferable than his heaven."

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
ChoChiyo wrote:
The only time I feel moderately "okay" about Christianity is when I'm reading C.S. Lewis, who is so incredibly rational, intelligent, and non-punitive in his presentation.
Have you read the Stephen C. McKinney Memorial Thread in the Hall of Gifts?


I read bits of it--but I was at work, and stifling those sobs was difficult--such a tender and touching thing! I put off reading the rest until I could do so in the privacy of my home with a box of kleenex.

Quote:
ChoChiyo wrote:
Also, I am tattooed, which is certainly a mark of certain deportation to hell. When my Aunt told me that, I told her that I didn't want to go to heaven if God was that narrow minded.
Very Happy I've posted this before. There's a fantasy book, The Kundalini Equation, by Steven Barnes, where one character is doing a lot of searching, questioning, etc, about life, God, etc. During an appearance, a woman in the audience asked, "Mr. Patanjal, how does it feel to know that you are going to burn in hell?" And he answered:
Quote:
"Madame, the divine force which you believe in and the one in which I believe are obviously two different beings. If in a sincere quest for understanding and knowledge I have erred, I am deeply sorry, and await a sign from the Almighty that will teach me the error of my ways. I simply believe in the virtues of sincere intellectual curiosity. An eagerness to use the mind and feelings that God himself gave me to inquire into mysteries rather than merely accept the explanation othat other men have passed down through the years. If for this I will be cast into fires everlasting, then God is indeed the malign thug of which Mark Twain wrote, and his hell could certainly be no more insufferable than his heaven."



EXACTLY what I was trying to express in my less eloquent way!

It reminds me of an incident in Winston Churchill's life, where he was approached by a woman who said, "Sir, if you were my husband, I would put poison in your tea!"

And he replied, "Madam, if you were my wife, I'd drink it!"

That always cracks me up.



I'll have to dig up a rather sophomoric poem I wrote about God and Heaven and so on and post it. Somewhere.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChoChiyo wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:
Have you read the Stephen C. McKinney Memorial Thread in the Hall of Gifts?
I read bits of it--but I was at work, and stifling those sobs was difficult--such a tender and touching thing! I put off reading the rest until I could do so in the privacy of my home with a box of kleenex.
Laughing I suspect it will be another time you're "okay" with Christianity. Stephen and Furls Fire are Christians in what I consider the very best sense of the word.

ChoChiyo wrote:
It reminds me of an incident in Winston Churchill's life, where he was approached by a woman who said, "Sir, if you were my husband, I would put poison in your tea!"

And he replied, "Madam, if you were my wife, I'd drink it!"

That always cracks me up.
LOL Hysterical
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Living as a "good" person is all we can try for, regardless of our beliefs. And as far as I'm concerned, that is enough.

--Avatar


So true.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing I've learned from Satanists about Satanism is that Satan is at least as boring and one-note as the God of the Fundamentalists he opposes.

("Blah, blah, blah... Evils committed by the Christians... Blah, blah, rebellion... ")
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Satanism ... Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
Perhaps calling yourself Demon has something to do with it also?Laughing


Good point. Embarassed
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChoChiyo wrote:
And try as I might, the only people I really saw Jesus come down hard on were the Religious Fanatics of his own time....Hmmmm. Makes you think, doesn't it?


Great post. I know exactly how you feel about not wanting to go to heaven if the "fundamentalists" are right. I once read:
Quote:
The technicalities of Religion have no place in the minds of God.


And that is an idea that I really like. Comes down to my belief that if there is a god, and he really cares about the people in this world, then it is the way that you treat those people, all of them, that he should care about. Not whether you call yourself a christian, or a muslim, or whatever.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plissken wrote:
The only thing I've learned from Satanists about Satanism is that Satan is at least as boring and one-note as the God of the Fundamentalists he opposes.

("Blah, blah, blah... Evils committed by the Christians... Blah, blah, rebellion... ")


I think you're making the (fairly common) mistake of confusing God and Satan with their representatives.

If you were to say *Christians* and *Satanists* can be pretty boring, I might agree with you. Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand what you're saying Edge, but Satanists (as I understand it) don't worship, follow, or represent Satan in any way.

The label "Satan-worshipper" is actually a contradiction in terms.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Y'know what I think? I think that everyone interpretes(sp?) everything in his or her own twisted up little way. For instance:

King James, or some such nonsensical figure, had stuff changed in that Bible thingy so that he could divorce his wife.

Likewise, other people (Satanists, some of 'em) take bits of the Bible thingy, manipulate them, and use them.

To me, religion is just a way for humans to do what they do best: exploit stuff. Hollywood hasn't helped.

Some people here think I'm a Satanist, just 'cause I don't go to church. (Me speaking as "the Beast" -just someone I made up, I assure you- hasn't helped.) Fanatics are often just bored with their own lives.

I doubt I made any sense there. Confused
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turiya Foul wrote:

King James, or some such nonsensical figure, had stuff changed in that Bible thingy so that he could divorce his wife.


Ouch. Let's try this again. Henry VIII broke the Church of England away from recognizing Papal authority in the 16th century. This was done primarily because the pope wouldn't grant the king an annulment.

The King James Bible was first printed in 1611.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Metal-Demon wrote:
I understand what you're saying Edge, but Satanists (as I understand it) don't worship, follow, or represent Satan in any way.

The label "Satan-worshipper" is actually a contradiction in terms.
I'm sure there must be people who worship Satan. But I once heard that most Satanists join for the orgies. I can certainly believe it.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dennisrwood wrote:
Christians believe that drums are satanic. something about that jungle rhythm.
Racist? OOO you better believe it! Children of Ham! Crusades! Antimuslim? NOOO...Very Happy Sensual drumbeats? OMG! Enjoying yourself? OMG! Hypocritical? YESSS...based on fear and population control? NOOO...Feed them to the Lions? Then you would be as bad as the Romans. But wait! Weren't they lowly "pagans" for worshiping more than one god? No worse than pagans for they allowed the followers of the one true god to kill the Son of God. Fear is the mindkiller so mindless sheep must have a shepard--but where is the shepard leading them to? And who controls the shepard? God? Satan? Paris Hilton? I'm SO afraid I just can't go on... Eeek Faint Screwy Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

danlo wrote:
Fear is the mindkiller


Well said.

--Avatar
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