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Overall 1st and 2nd Chronicles Reflections-Runes Group Read
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danlo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:34 pm    Post subject: Overall 1st and 2nd Chronicles Reflections-Runes Group Read Reply with quote

While I was preparing "To Say Farewell" we started a workshop/random thought thread at Ahira's Hangar (the Watch's sister site), and I felt that these comments might be able to jumpstart a general relection/analysis of the entire 2nd Chronicles-In other words feel free to chat away on your preceptions of the entire trilogy, once you've finished. If you're reading the 2nd Chrons for the 1st time, or in the process of rereading you should probably avoid this and take it chapter by chapter. Cool

So these are just random notes and thoughts that we began throwing around...

I wrote:

In Thus Spoke Zarathustra-Nietzsche refers to this higher mode of being as "superhuman" (übermenschlich), and associates the doctrine of eternal recurrence -- a doctrine for only the healthiest who can love life in its entirety -- with this spiritual standpoint, in relation to which all-too-often downhearted, all-too-commonly-human attitudes stand as a mere bridge to be crossed and overcome

That which does not kill us makes us stronger

Covenant is killed is beyond death thanks to Caer Caveral's (Hile Troy) ultimate scarifice in breaking the Law of Death: giving TC the power to act and still oppose Foul, as opposed to the rest of the Dead. TC infused with these powers and cleansed of venom and guilt in effect becomes the uberman (Arch of Time). Foul doesn't realize that TC, too, is the white gold & a part of him he can't deny--evil cannot exist without it's oppostion. Lucky Foul didn't attack Arch before he killed TC--why?

What is Linden's role in all this? Teaches her that her guilt, shame and lack of love is essentially false...

Then I threw out,

well not essentially false but unwarranted-in the big picture-she has beaten herself up for things she had no or little control of for a very long time

"His loathing of himself had grown so great that it had become a loathing of life. It had been like her mother's religion, only able to prove itself true by imposing itself upon the people around it. But it had been false; and she thought of him now with regret and pity which she had never been able to afford. He had been wrong about her: she had loved him dearly. She had loved both of her parents, although she had been badly misled by her own bitterness."-key point.

So in all the 2nd Chrons how exactly does Linden heal? Love--paradox of posession---Gibbon's threats and accusations--what about Mom? Is Ceer important that way? Yes but Linden was in odd state of post-Elohim "silence-coma" then...what else?

TWL attack on natural order/preversion of the Land
Dead-Vain
Gibbon-Linden
Haruchai service
Coursers-Sarangrave
Meeting the Search
caamora

TOT
Raver attacks-Nicor
Elohim-
(please feel free to mention what you feel are key points in all 3 books and I'll try to complete this...)

then,

Damelon wrote:
How does she heal the land in the end? By acceptance, and by blind trust. She takes the Sunbane into herself and heals the Land through the power of the new Staff of Law, accepting the Sunbane into herself.

It seems that even up to the confrontation between TC and Foul that Linden has trouble with accepting others decisions. She seems to have a need for control. It is only in the end that she learns, through trusting TC to give up that need.

Well, just a couple of thoughts off the top of my head in response to you pm.

Let me think a little more on it.


and I said,


acceptance? Giving up control? Accepting help? With TC it was taunting of Foul--Foul couldn't resist squashing those he deemed "tools" and "unworthy pawns" in the meantime TC's specter blocks AofT by his own acceptance and non-violence: "I'm not going to fight you...", but TC's dilemma is more complex than that--Mhoram: "You are the White Gold."

Damelon wrote:
Ah but Foul doesn't see where TC's voluntarly giving up the white gold will lead...... any more than Linden does. She was ready though to trust TC enough to let him follow through with his plan. She accepted his decision in the end.

Also for Linden re the Sunbane: Acceptance -

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.....Horror raised mute cries of protest. In a sense, she would have to become the Land-to expose herself as fully to the Sunbane's desecration. It would be like being locked again in the attic with her dying father while dark glee came hosting against her - like enduring again her mother's abject blame until she was driven to the point of murder. But she had survived those things.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



also:


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But she had learned from Covenant, and from the Raver's possession. She did not attempt to attack the Sunbane. Instead she called it to herself, accepted it into her personal flesh


and,

Duchess wrote:
She has not only learned to trust TC, she has learned to trust herself. If she had not trusted herself, she would not have been able to pull the Sunbane into herself in order to defeat it. That was a great act of faith in her own strength and healing ability. And her defeat of the Raver that possessed her is a key to that new found faith, I believe.

I have always thought that Covenant's ending in WGW made a lot more sense than the end of TPTP, as much as I love the laughter. There is a remarkable theme of pure self-sacrifice that runs through both chrons-- Lena's choice to let TC go, Atiaran's choice not to get revenge, Hyrim at Coercri, Lord Mhoram's Victory, nearly everything to do with Sunder's life, Brinn, Hamako, Hollian, Honninscrave, Caer Caveral/Hile Troy...the list can go on and on...

And those examples were crowned by TC giving Foul the white gold (himself???), and Linden being willing to pull all of the pain and wrongness of the Sunbane into herself in order to defeat it.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danlo, this is a great idea for a thread -- in particular since the release of Runes of the Earth...it certainly looks as if the Second Chrons will be a springboard to much of what will be happening in the Last Chrons. Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree--I just wish that others would start adding their thoughts, not only to this thread--but to the chapters themselves so we don't start to become an actual (here comes the dreaded word:) archive here... Neutral

TC White Gold Raver Raver Hile Troy Raver Linden Vain
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dont worry Danlo! Razz

As soon as ive finished with ASoIaF, I will be rereading the chrons, so i might just drop in with a few points about some chapters!
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you may know I've only fully reread the entire Chronicles once, even though I've "spot" read all over the place for the dissection. Even though there's so much more to discover in every book-I always feel like there's something I'm always missing in The Power That Preserves. I don't know why, well maybe I do: it's that dang tricky SRD, after all. Sure the progression seems simple enough---maybe it's this "preceived" simplicity that makes me think of that book last. Can't be that simple, "It's not that easy!" So I'm going to go straight to that book sometime in the next two weeks--so don't be surprized if you actually see fresh postings here or in TPTP chapter analysees.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GREAT! I'll be looking forward to it, I miss all of the great discussions that used to take place in this forum.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All you have to do is read some of SRDs answers in the GI to know that the author has added layers of meanings that I'm sure most readers never uncover. Everything is a symbol. (Even Teresa's ubiquitous breasts were symbols!)

As the culmination (at least, at the time it was written), the symbols resolve, and are most evident, in TPTP.

I might dare suggest, Danlo, that your quest could be look for the symbols, and ponder their meanings.

P.S.

DISECT RUNES!!!

DISECT RUNES!!!

DISECT RUNES!!!
<pre> :
:</pre>
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will, indeed, be looking for symbols, and the debate still continues on Runes. I personally think now is the best time ever--so we won't have hindsight--but it could make the summer fly by while we wait for FR. (actually you really shouldn't have hindsight in a true "Group Read") please add you thoughts here or in the What about Runes? topic--I'll talk to Jay about the whole thing--I really think you're right--now is the time to plan on dissecting Runes. However I would like to talk to dlp, Creator and others first--I don't want to steal any thunder from their forum.

In fact one good ideal might be to start the Runes dissection (stickied) in that forum and then move it over here once FR comes out and then turn the Runes forum into: The Final Chronicles forum... Confused

The only problem I see is that it may be easier to track a Runes dissection here, rather than have it mixed in with all the threads and speculation in the Runes forum--so maybe I just shot down my former idea..HELP!!! Razz
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think dissecting Runes now will be a great idea, I don't remember how many chapters there are but it would help time pass more quickly while we're waiting for FR.

I would also say that if we dissect Runes, then it should be done here. I don't think it would take away from Runes forum at all, there are still alot of threads there that continue to generate interest.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well cool then--I'll post a proposed starting date-June 1st, say (?), and put up a sign-up sheet this weekend. But, I guess, we need to start at chapter 2 since that sneaky Fist already snagged 1. (there are 29 chapters, btw, 28 spots available--every 2 weeks should take us right up to FR Very Happy ).
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ALRIGHT! I can't wait!
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sweeeeeeeeeeeet!

Personally, I think if we miss the opportunity to dissect a Donalson book before we know the end, we'll be very sorry. Eight years from now, when I know how it ends, I want to look back at what I wrote.

Plus, I only joined the Watch in time to dissect WGW, and I got stuck with the worst chapter in the whole lot!
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought your dissection in WGW was one of the best done of that book, WF - and I look forward to your dissection when we do ROTE.

The biggest reason why I think it's important to dissect ROTE now is - I don't completely understand the book, and I don't think I'm alone when I say that. A dissection now will get me ready for FR when it's released.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No folks this doesn't mean that WF has an ironhand on doing Find Me...we'll probably have to establish a lottery for that Chap. Razz Wink

I agree will you man, that's why I avoided the idea of rereading till, say...right about now...probably why I haven't responded much in your forum, sorry... Embarassed
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Along with Wayfriend, I hope Nerdanel, burgs, drew and lurch also take on Runes chapters for dissection, as all these Watchers have been such stellar contributors to the Runes forum.

(Not that I'm putting any pressure on anyone...) Big Grin
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then we'd better send out a full Watch communique...er....JAY!!!! Shocked
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW, on a serious note: the one dissection I was in, one day I logged in and it was "signups soon". The next day it was "only 4 chapters left". I hope that there is a way to do it without skewing it against people who check in only once a day or two...

Also BTW, I wouldn't ask for Find Me. My first choice would be "I am content" (Part One chapter 1). Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's give WF dibs on that chapter!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've asked for Jay's backing and a full Watch communique, as well as announcements in Announcements, Runes, the TC forum and at the Hangar. If he gives the go-ahead I usually take PMs over posting-folks who bother to PM are generally more sincere. I'm glad you three are exicted I may need all of your help more than you know. I'm not going to do a thing without hearing from Jay and looking at this as a totally unified thing. Cool
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matrixman wrote:
Along with Wayfriend, I hope Nerdanel, burgs, drew and lurch also take on Runes chapters for dissection, as all these Watchers have been such stellar contributors to the Runes forum.

(Not that I'm putting any pressure on anyone...) Big Grin


Although you did not mention me, I'd also like to join the Runes dissection, when it comes to pass.
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