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The Golden Compass & His Dark Materials discussion
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Cambo
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deer, a question in response to your last comments in that thread?

How does one earn the right to criticise (at any level)?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good question, Cambo. The right to criticize would have to perhaps include a balanced perspective, in which the critic acknowledged the good in something, not just used it as a two-dimensional villain, or to borrow a kind of credibility. We're not talking about Hitler here, but the Church-- in many areas of the world (still) the only resource providing health care, education, and hope to the impoverished. It's about a lot more than control and power. And his use of esoteric factoids about angels to add a veneer of spiritual authority was cheap.

I feel so mean and harsh!! Did anyone notice how much I said I loved the books??!? *runs to the hug thread*
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Lady Revel
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really liked these books....I thought the movie was awful, but as a reader, I am used to this by now....You can always find things to pick at, but to me, it was an original idea, in an interesting world, which moved to other worlds. It wasn't the same plot over and over again.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Lady Revel, as I live and breathe.

How nice to see you around again. It's been what...four years? Laughing

Welcome back.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar! Lovely to see you as well! Yes, it has been a while, lots of twist and turns in my life.....I need some stability, so I thought I would look up old friends. *grin*
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And here we are, pretty much as you left us. Laughing

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is very lucky for me. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing Yes it is.

Not sure what it says about us though...uh...constancy, that's what it says about us. (That's my story and I'm sticking to it.) Wink

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reliability, Av. Dependable rocks to cling to in a stormy sea Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There ya go. Laughing

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And weirdly enough, I'm posting here again because I actually read the books. Haven't seen the movie.

They were ok. The first book was a bit juvenile, the second book was good, the third was rather disappointing.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's been a long time, but IIRC I thought they tackled really dark and difficult subjects in view of the young minds the were aimed at. Pullman came across as the Dawkins of adolescent aimed novelists and his 'God/religion bad, secular/atheist good' approach in my view amounted to little more than atheist-humanist propaganda aimed at young impressionable minds. To tie the Church of the novels to a thinly disguised version of the concentration camps was a pretty low trick given that that is the kind of association that sticks in young minds.

Like Av, IIRC I thought the second book the best, but by the third the story had descended into an almost outright attack on any kind of belief and became a pretty confused and ill-structured affair to boot. By the end I was not sure who had won, what they had won and why they had won it! But by then I no longer cared anyway.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really didn't notice an attack on any beliefs. Very Happy Maybe I'm just oblivious to it given my own general antipathy toward them. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Pullman (I think, but might be wrong) has been up alongside Dawkins (on stage that is) at these atheist/humanist rally's, and if so I guess there might be something of that in the works. But it's entirely possible I've misread the books and created a non-existant metaphor that just wasn't there........errr........ Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have it right, peter. I only read the first book and found that there was a distinctly materialist theme to the books that is portrayed as 'good' in contrast to the 'bad' religion. I have no doubt that someone like Dawkins would just love it! Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In general, the polemics of authors don't bother me much. It's just part of the world / character building to me.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's also important to note that a series can be bad not because it attacks your ideas but just in execution in general.

I am not a fan of His Dark Materials, but do you also critique the Chronicles of Narnia for being a thinly veiled Christian Propaganda piece aimed at impressionable young minds? Do you make such connections such as, "This is the sort of book Pat Robertson may like"?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orlion wrote:
It's also important to note that a series can be bad not because it attacks your ideas but just in execution in general.

I am not a fan of His Dark Materials, but do you also critique the Chronicles of Narnia for being a thinly veiled Christian Propaganda piece aimed at impressionable young minds? Do you make such connections such as, "This is the sort of book Pat Robertson may like"?

Not sure if this is directed to me, but I'll pick it up anyway. I thought the writing and storytelling in The Golden Compass were quite good. It may simply be that overt polemic doesn't sit well with me. I read some of the Narnia books when I was young and wouldn't even have noticed the religious allegory in them. Yet as soon as I started TGC I knew what was coming at me. I had a similar experience with David Weber's Safehold series and I still managed to read on (maybe because it was for adults rather than YA).

I also get it a bit when a clearly libertarian message is being pushed (can't take much of Heinlein, for example, although Stranger in a Strange Land was okay). So, yeah, maybe when the politics doesn't sit well with my own and it is overt, that is a factor. But, I think that I generally don't mind any sort of philosophy, religion, ideology etc. when it is integrated into the story. People like Ursula le Guin and L.E. Modesitt Jr. are not afraid to tackle stuff like that fairly directly and yet because it is subordinate to the needs of the story it doesn't bother me.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love Heinlein. Very Happy

I like Orson Scott Card too, (well, his writing anyway). Very Happy

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
I like Orson Scott Card too, (well, his writing anyway). Very Happy

I'm a fan of Card's books as well. I've never felt that they were polemical, am I missing something?

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