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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am    Post subject: Why didn't he move? Reply with quote

It is kind of sad that there wasn't even one person in town who was willing to be TC's friend, isn't it? OTOH, he probably did drive them away with his behavior.

I think TC might have been clinically depressed as a result of his disease, Joan leaving, etc. He was fairly high-functioning -- he could still keep track of himself well enough to do the constant VSEs -- but the "don't touch me" stuff is a classic hallmark of depression: an angry outburst that drives others away, just when the person needs help the most. I'm not disputing that the people in town avoided TC and that he was a target for the hatred of at least some of them, but whoever it was that said that the novel is told from TC's POV is right on: TC perceives everybody's behavior through the filter of his illness. He thinks they're avoiding him because he's leper outcast unclean, but it's possible that at least some of them are avoiding him because he's just flat weird.

Anyway, what I was going to say was that TC was probably so depressed that he couldn't even begin to think of a way out of his situation -- including the possibility of moving. Besides which, the house, like the ring, was one of the last things he still had from the life he shared with Joan. He was in no way emotionally ready to let it go.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am    Post subject: If u read the very beginning of LFB... Reply with quote

What Lauralin is proposing is sort of a "which came 1st the chicken or the egg" type of scenario. If u reread the beginning of "Golden Boy" the 1st chapt of LFB it appears that TC really wasn't, originally, that much of a "shut-in" antisocial writer that he appears 2b. --"But he saw that the people he passed, the people who knew him, who names and houses and handclasps were known to him..." it also goes on 2 say that he spoke about his book @ the town's little literary guild being all friendly and smilely with the ladies, sipping tea...We can sort of tell from how he looks back @ his book that he was a little self-obsessed and full of himself and that his view of his book as "self-absorbed fluff" is what gave him writer's block in the 1st place. So yes b4 he contracted leprosy he was pissed @ himself and mopping around the house, but in general it seemed like he had a friendly--@ least "working"--relationship w/many people in the town. You have 2 remember that this town was sorta isolated and only had 5,000 citizens. So the second ANYTHING goes wrong EVERYBODY knows about it!
---I, kinda, liken it 2 this: I was watching some "Dateline" (actually it was a PBS Frontline mini-series I had 2 watch 4 my Deviant Behavior sociology class in College...{ed. 2-15-03}) type of program about a little girl in Georgia who was missing and presummed killed by a supposed "Satanic cult" that involved 3 poor families living @ the edge of town. And when the officer who was leading the investigation was charged (by some little kid's wild imagination) as the leader of the cult his and all 3 family's lives were absolutely destroyed. It was all based on heresay--but that's how fast word and condemnation spread in that tiny little town.
---So if just 1 person said "leprosy is a deadly disease, it's contagious" the entire Townfulosonbitches could all very well believe that and condemn w/o information. What blows my mind is that u would think that the county health officials would @least try 2 educate the people about leprosy and @least 1 person, besides Dr. Berensford would have it in their heart 2 @least try 2 reach out 2 Covenant...It just shows u what's wrong w/the world that people judge and react w/o thinking and hardly ever use their hearts. Even Berensford keeps it a secret until he tells Linden. They TOTALLY ostracize TC and essentially turn Haven Farm in2 a one man "leper colony" by paying his bills and delivering food 2 him. No he was the town's dirty little secret (like locking mad uncle Ernie in the attic) out of sight out of mind--or like nuclear waste-"Not in my back yard!" Imho, yes it really WAS a Townfulosonabithes--my real ? is this--y did TC bother 2 stay there--he had the resources--he could have moved--perhaps he believed it was all hopeless and remained there wishing that some1 would come along and shoot him--in the meantime he just kept himself alive--what else could he do? Who wouldn't b bitter?
--Finally let me just purpose this about the friends he met in The Land, remember he doesn't believe any of this is real. So when he meets them he really isn't trying 2 b nasty 2 them--he basically talking 2 himself and his imagination--"I'm making u up--so up urs!" the real dillema is that he finds he CAN'T get out of his imagination and the "rape of Lena" thus becomes an fantastic disertation on reality vs fantasy and responsiblity vs selfishness!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am    Post subject: Covenant's town Reply with quote

I wouldn't be so very hard on this town...or actually on Joan either. We really don't know very much about the town, the people in it, or Covenant before he got leprosy, accept what TC thinks about them. Whith the aception of the sherrif, the truck driver, and the guy at the revival, I really couldn't judge the people of that town on the info provided. When you (or TC) say that they were reacting in that manner because they were all ignorant bigots, you leave out a rather important consideration; namley that TC was a totaly unfreindly, nasty, mean, selfish, and obssesive (about his disease) jerk to anyone who wasn't patient and sympathetic enough to get to know him. No, I'm not really defending their behavior, but I am saying that it might have been understandable. Ever noticed what happened when anyone first became his friend? In fact I was wondering if these people were just weak, and didn't care enough to go to all that trouble for a person who had a disease which he wouldn't let you forget. Also, I NEVER noticed Covenant ever actually communicating whith anyone; a sociable person might tell others that it wasn't contagius, but then again did TC have any good friends? I'd say no, judging from the first crons. So maybe it was a combination of the people being ignorent hypochrits with weak charecters, this being the wrong town for this particular anti-social writer, and the fact that the book was written from Covenants point of view.
I personally don't think that most of them were quite so bad as TC thinks they are.....just confused and selfish humans.

Or I could be wrong....if so feel free to say so...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am    Post subject: bigots, etc. Reply with quote

Hearthcoal, I'd bet that Joan picked out the farm, just like she pretty much decided everything else in their life -- and I'm sure she picked it because it had room for her horses. It probably didn't even occur to her that she'd be sending her kids to school with bigoted hicks -- or maybe she expected TC to make enough money so that Roger could go to boarding school. Who knows?

Rocky -- your wand sounds very cool! You could name it for a feature (Crystale or Crystallon, because of the crystal ball at the top) or for what it does. It could be the Diminisher or the Augmenter (whoa, those sound kind of sinister...). Or, shoot, I dunno, Aerleon (have no clue what that would mean, but it looks a little like "lion of the air" to me).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We may be making history here. This is the first time I have heard Harry Potter compared to TOTC.

I suppose this calls for a new thread, because it is way, way off topic, but SF123 has made a comparison of the Croyel and drinking Unicorn's blood.

It seems to me that both are "deals with the Devil". But with the Croyel one gets into a symbiotic relationship, taken over, if you will, by a parasite.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Saltheart Foamfollower (aka Rocky)

I have posted a response to your mention of your story and your request for help in naming your wand at a new discussion topic

Welcome to the Loresraat II...

Let me know what you think.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:14 am    Post subject: Is Townfulasonobitches in Texas? Reply with quote

Did Joan have an aggravated yeast infection? Did TC pet an armadillo? I know y'all r laughing ur asses of right now, but the little research I did in2 leprosy and autism raises some interesting subjects, of course we also need a Dr. 2 help sort out my ignorance--amanibhavim are u out there? Aren't u a Dr.? Well we know how rare cases of leprosy r in the United States but my research indicates that the largest incidences found in the US occur in Texas and Louisiana. They have also found the same bacteria that causes Hansen's disease in armadillos! I'm not kidding...We also don't kno the xact type of leprosy TC had--there r 3 types: Regular Hansen's causes dark hue pigmentosis, some loss of nerve feeling, severe dry skin and rashes. Tuberculoid leprosy causes nerve thickening and effects the eyes and worse. Lepomtous leprosy is the very worst and twists the body, digits and body parts fall off. @ the varying degrees the worse the case the more the leper stinks and all cases can infect the brain. Right now they r being very sucessful in arresting and curing leprosy, if caught in the early stages, around the world. A large part of this is MDT (multidrug therapy) 2 of the major types of drugs used in this theraphy r antibiotics and DDS (diamino-diphenyl-sulfor). TC's Dr. @ the leprosarim hinted that DDS and synthetic-antibiotics were being used in the attempt 2 arrest his leprosy. It seemed as if all of TC's treatments may have been going fine, he was doing his VSE, taking his medication and believed (from what we gather when he talks about it) he had the Tuberculoid form. Now let me pose this: remember TCTC was written in 76-78 and the MDT was very new back then...and not always successful, also now in the MDT regular antibiotics r being used, not synthetics. Also remember this: DDS was relatively new as well--DDS is only manufactured in China and it's original use was as a very strong accelerant for epoxy resins--4 polymers. In other words in it's original form it is a carcinogenic, dangerous chemical used 4 making pipefitting glue stronger!!! I'm not proposing here that the Dr.s misdiagnosed TC's leprosy (tho of course anything's possible). But mayb TC had the lesser form of Hansen's disease and the dose of DDS was improperly formulated and it's mixture w/synthetic antibiotics was off balance, as well. Synthetic drugs in a wide application were also relatively new back then, as well. Some people, not many but some, can develope very serious allergic reations 2 any synthesized drug. Just as an xample: b4 my hand surgery my Dr. perscribed Hydro-Codone--I got very irritable, had wicked headaches, vomited and had 2 leave work. Then we went on a camping trip and when I walked the dogs up a hill I really thought I was having a heart attack! When I got back I vomited every time a ate or drank anything and passed out 4 hours @ a time. When I stopped taking the drug-everything cleared up. Also, remember that TC suffered from vertigo as well and studies indicate that there is a link btween earlier synthetic based antibiotics administered in improper doses with the causation of vertigo like factors:
Quote:
The aminoglycoside antibiotics are the first ototoxic agents which highlighted the problem of drug-induced hearing and vestibular loss. They are highly water soluble compounds and their charge prevents entry into cells via diffusion across the plasma membrane. The incidence of clinical and functional hearing loss due to aminoglycosides has been significantly diminished because some of the newer derivatives have lower ototoxic potential and perhaps efficient monitoring of serum levels of drugs have allowed for better dosing schedules. However, the problem is a significant one as they are still widely used in the treatment of serious gram-negative infections as pointed out by Schacht.69 The concentration of aminoglycoside in plasma produced by the initial or loading dose is dependent only on the volume of the distribution of the drug. Since the elimination of aminoglycosides is almost entirely dependent on the kidney, a linear relationship exists between the concentration of creatinine in plasma and the half-life of all aminoglycosides in patients with moderately compromised renal function. In anephric patients, the half-life varies from 20 to 40 times that determined in normal individuals. Because the incidence of nephrotoxicity and ototoxicity is related to the concentration to which an aminoglycoside accumulates, it is critical to reduce the maintenance dosage of these drugs in patients with impaired renal function.2
The mechanism of oto- and vestibular toxicity has been elusive. Mechanisms for acute and chronic toxicity may be different. It appears that there is an antagonistic relationship between aminoglycosides and calcium which can block the acute aminoglycoside-induced depression of microphonic potentials experimentally.70 A number of potential synaptic mechanisms are postulated.69 For example, streptomycin blocks the postsynaptic actions of excitatory amino acids on primary afferents in the vestibular system, blocks the glutamate-gated ionophore at the crayfish neuromuscular junction, and antagonizes quisqualate-induced excitation of cortical neurons. The chronic toxicity of aminoglycosides appears to target exclusively the kidney, cochlea, and the vestibular system. Aminoglycosides have been reported to affect a wide variety of intracellular reactions which are probably responsible for the permanent deficits of chronic toxicity. DNA, RNA, and protein synthesis, energy metabolism and ion transport are affected as well as synthesis or degredation of prostaglandins, gangliosides, mucopolysaccharides, and lipids. An important feature is the delayed onset of auditory and vestibular damage in almost all cases of chronic glycoside toxicity, both in experimental animals and as in patients. Early studies of aminoglycoside pharmacokinetics gave rise to the hypothesis that the toxicity of these drugs was based upon their Aaccumulation@ in inner ear fluids. This early hypothesis has been questioned.69,71 It may well be that a metabolite of the aminoglycoside is involved in the toxic action of such drugs. This hypothesis is reviewed in detail by Schacht.69 Drug metabolism may also explain the selective toxicity toward kidney and the inner ear as well as why some aminoglycosides preferentially damage the cochlea, and others the vestibular system. For example, although the vestibular system may have a preference to metabolize vestibulotoxic drugs, it may conversely have a greater capacity to detoxify those aminoglycosides that spare the vestibular system.-B. Todd Troost, MD


So you can c a possible connection btween TC's medical therapy 2 treat his Hansen's disease and vertigo, not 2 mention the synaptic disfunction sideeffects--and there is no reason not 2 believe that these side effects could lead 2 an autistic-like condition. A prolonged, untreated yeast infection which can transmit the candida bateria can also disrupt brain function and lead 2 autism. This is only supposed 2 happen 2 children btween birth and 3 years of age, but anything's possible.. But if Joan did have an infection and these antibiotics were running around like crazy in TC and his auto-immune system was compromised the transmission of this bacteria could have contributed even more 2 autistic like behavior:

Quote:

They cite Japanese studies showing that candida is able to produce toxins which cause severe long-term disruption of the immune system and may also attack the brain. In extreme cases, they claim, severe disorders, totally resistant to conventional treatment, can occur as a result of candidiasis. These include depression, schizophrenia and, in some cases, autism.-Bernard Rimland, MD
Austistic children exibit anti-social behavior, have no interest in other people, perform ritualistic repetitive behaviors and tend 2 live in a "world of their own". Indeed many autistic children I have come in contact with draw amazing, sometimes unfathomable pictures of other worlds. TC's ingrained theraphy 4 coping w/his leprosy: Knowing that he may face extended periods of being alone, 2 be distrutful and wary of society's reaction 2 his condition and his constant VSE (a ritualistic, repetitive behavior), do raise interesting parralells w/autism. DDS's side effects may include: nausea, vomiting, headache, anorexia, nervousness, exfoliative dermititus, rash and proritus--which opens up the possibility that TC may have been totally misdiagnosed and the drugs were casusing leprosy-like symptoms--he definately had headaches, got sick in the Land and never ate anything. The Land was a pretty amazing "other world"...Of course, given this, we have 2 assume that Linden had autism as well and that they shared a common world or hallucination. On the other hand perhaps Linden never really entered the Land @ all but was simply treating TC during a severe autistic episode and that he incorporated her in2 his vision. Thus by beginning to heal the Land she attempted 2 bring him back 2 reality and failed b4 she could could save his physical body on the altar...Anyway u can poke all sorts of holes in this, but u must admit it is some pretty interesting fft...

Last edited by danlo on Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:32 am; edited 17 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danol - the little research? Laughing Jeez! You did quite a job for just a little research! You were starting to sound like a pharmacist! Wink
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An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy. “It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority and ego.

The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.

The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.”

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”

The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2002 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I am a pharmacist, and didn't know any of this! Great Job! I'll have to dig up some references at work. Or have a look at this great website for pharmacists called www.globalrph.com and see what they have to say!
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2002 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I tried www.globalrph.com and found some leprosy pictures from the University of Iowa (looked like a horrible rash) and quite a bit of info from the CDC among other sources. So if anyone wants to see leprosy photos or egt information, gibe it a go!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2002 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate the religious fanatics the most. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2002 2:03 am    Post subject: Vertigo Reply with quote

First, excellent research.

About the vertigo, tho... I've always believed the vertigo Covenant experiences is more of a metaphor. Afraid of heights, afraid of power, afraid of the heights of emotion. Similar to his fear of horses. So much unbridled health is an affront to his sickness.

Speaking of, I was watching As Good as it Gets this weekend and couldn't help drawing comparisons between Eudall (Nicholson's character) and Covenant. Anybody with me on this one?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2002 12:26 am    Post subject: Jack Nicholson? Reply with quote

Hey yea! Some of Eudall's quirkiness did remind me of TC. In fact, I just watched The Shining - Jack Nicholson would be a great TC if a movie would ever be produced. Laughing

But that's another topic.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since some folks have been discussing the "Berek on our earth" possibility, I've bumped this thread up!
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Aside from Dr. Benford and, sometimes, Megan Roman didn't u really despise most of the humans TC had 2 deal with before he was summoned and after?


I'm not so sure if I buy into the harshness of Covenant's Earth. I, most certainly understand the harshness that is out there, and the bigotry and quick to hate attitudes that is out there, but I don't think it's at the volume as portrayed in the Covenant books. To me, it's almost a weak point in the books, in that I have a hard time accepting almost everyone would be so ignorant and lacking compassion.

I've always been one to have faith in the human condidtion, and think there are far more understanding, accepting and loving individuals than there are not.

It's interesting that the first book came out just a couple years before the word AIDS came into our vocabulary. As I was reading the first book and the description of leprosy and how it was different from all other diseases in that it bred fear and loathing, it made me think of AIDS during the 80s. I wonder if he were to write the book in say, 1984, would Thomas Covenant had been suffering from AIDS?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leprosy is a disease that is not very common anymore, and with the bad image of the disease, I think the people would respond as they did in the book. Fear is a powerful emotion, fear and hate together is a bad combo, ask the Jews. The regular people of Germany may not have hated the Jews like the Nazi's did, but how many of them helped stop the Nazi's or tried helping the Jewish people? Man can commit atrocities beyond the imagination when afraid and ignorant of the situation. So a small town of rednecks turning on a man with leprosy is not so suprising.



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep. I live in a "small town full of rednecks", and they'll turn on you in a minute. I live in Townfulosonsofbitches or whatener it is. Only difference is I live in TN. More Razz
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok!!! No Jeff Foxworthy jokes in my thread!!! Cussing "You might be a redneck..." Foot in Mouth Hysterical
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"You might be a redneck" ??? I make no jokes. I am the supreme bad guy of my series.(Well, duh!) Bad guys do not make jokes. Ah, what it must be like to live in a redneck's head.
Makes note to possess a redneck Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So. You might be a redneck Raver if...

1. You gaze into the Illearth Stone in order to watch reruns of The Dukes Of Hazzard and Hee-Haw.

2. You've ever possessed someone who wore cowboy boots.

3. You feel naked if you leave the Creche without your cowboy hat.

4. It's Saturday night and your biggest decision is the bar or sending a swarm of bees into your best friend's wedding - You chose the bar.

5. Your town your victims live in has more cows than people.

6. Most of your knives came from restaurants (and you didn't buy them - which is why they're always "hot").

7. You hooked up with your present victim as a result of a message on the wall of the mens' room at the Flying J Truck Stop.

8. Your pet kresh had a litter of pups in the living room and nobody noticed.
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