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Defend the Land!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My complete war strategy for organizing the Land's defenders into a deadly and resilient force that would have slain Fleshharrower and wiped out his entire army:

http://theland.antgear.com/war.html
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One issue there. Great strategy. All true. What do you do after that? Yay, they've won! Now, all the surviving people are bloodthirsty murderers, and Foul has made them Desecrate themselves. Why bother, like that? Why win if we've died before we've started? Death of the soul, death of the body... Anyways, who would lead it? Only Troy. He can't be everywhere, and do everything. And actual combat practice is impossible, so... Strategy is sound, but impossible and unethical to implement.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sherman Landlearner wrote:
One issue there. Great strategy. All true. What do you do after that? Yay, they've won! Now, all the surviving people are bloodthirsty murderers, and Foul has made them Desecrate themselves. Why bother, like that? Why win if we've died before we've started? Death of the soul, death of the body... Anyways, who would lead it? Only Troy. He can't be everywhere, and do everything. And actual combat practice is impossible, so... Strategy is sound, but impossible and unethical to implement.
Well ... please allow me to disagree with your characterization of the peoples of the Land as "bloodthirsty murderers" simply because they logically and efficiently organized themselves to militarily defeat the Gray Slayer. After all, even the Oath of Peace itself acknowledges there are instances where one must "maim" and "kill", and an armed onslaught by Lord Foul certainly qualifies.

After having defeated Lord Foul's armies, one would hope the remaining Lords and free peoples of the Land would commence the great healing work necessitated by the war. Much like the hobbits commenced cleaning up the Shire from Saruman's depredations at the end of the Third Age.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not their organization that causes that. The war, no matter what strategy, would kill at least 2/3 of the participants. The people most likely to survive are the bloodthirsty ones. And the Oath is great, but when you lose count of how much death you've caused and seen, I can't see that comforting the survivors. They'd have extreme PTSD.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've gotta admit, I think Sherman's right on that. On the off-chance that everything you've planned does go as expected, (although let's face it; it's not a regular human general we're facing here, it's Lord Foul. Lord Foul. He'd no doubt twist things around in double-time, if he didn't already know/suspect what you were intending on doing, had you been sent to the Land in Troy's place.) the Land will have no doubt sustained many losses, and the people of the Land will likely not be the same again - plus there's still Foul to deal with, as well as the Ravers. (albeit not in Giant form!) Give the Despiser forty more years, and I'm sure he'll come up with something! Very Happy


Anyway, as for my plan, I'm not sure if it'll be "allowed", but I probably wouldn't change (read: wouldn't do much/any better, given Troy's circumstances; especially involving the late arrival of information regarding the enemy's troop numbers and movements) Troy's plan, and would instead elect to change the EarthBlood command; either through changing confronting Elena about her - frankly ludicrous - planned suggestion and changing her mind, and/or by going first.

Anyway, as Foul's off-limits to the EarthBlood's power, I would definitely have to issue a sort of 'blanket command' for all of the Urviles and Cavewights of the Land, to learn to love the Land and other people/creatures of the Land, for what it is, rather than blindly following the Ravers and Foul on their path of destruction, and instead fight for the Land. (I'd also/alternatively command the Ravers to do this, if the option were available to me, naturally!)

I know they won't be able to stop Foul, and that there are plenty of other creatures under Foul's control, (plus the Cavewights and Urviles under the Ravers' direct control are no doubt off-limits to the command, for the time being. Although they might not be, I suppose...) but they would of course be a great aid to the Land, as the Urviles are similarly gifted to the Waynhim, and would prove to be invaluable, much like the Cavewights' physical strength.


Anyway, sorry if this has already been suggested and/or was written fairly incoherently - I'm currently supposed to be studying, and am therefore trying to balance internet posting with work! Very Happy (so sadly I've only read a few pages' worth of replies in total, at this stage)
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know...that stragegy, among any number of other things, seems to require far more people than actually exist in the Land to even begin to execute it. [and that's just the folk in the forces themselves, not even taking into account the folk needed to support such a force].
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
I don't know...that stragegy, among any number of other things, seems to require far more people than actually exist in the Land to even begin to execute it. [and that's just the folk in the forces themselves, not even taking into account the folk needed to support such a force].


This particular war strategy doesn't presuppose having access to any more people than Hile Troy did in the Eoward. It merely changes how they are organized, equipped, trained and employed in order to make use of ancient and modern advances in warfare.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All right, some basic things:

1) The Giants are not available. They were separated, and then annihilated. The Waynhim can not be contacted if they do not want to be. Their culture is such as well that I do not think they could help in providing information about ur-viles. Haruchai, based on on their culture, would also not be used. After all, they were still at the point were the Bloodguard 'suffice'.

2) The abilities of the people of the Land to raise an army and gather resources to develope weaponry etc. is waaay over assumed. This is a post-apocalyptic culture that has just managed to get a foothold and is developing a culture. Because of their various abilities, they do not seem to be advanced in mining, smelting, or even forging.

3) You seem to be ignoring a lot of the supernatural aspects of Foul's armies. It is just more than numbers, Fleshharrower with his piece of the Illearth stone is able to warp the environment around him, fill the air with fear, etc. Meanwhile, the ur-viles are just formidable in of themselves. Never mind that you also have squadrons upon squadrons of undead/deformed folk that need no feeding and do not tire and only stop once you put them down.

That's a lot of things that military experience has never dealt with in our world. It does no good to have a cavalry if you do not have horses that can be breed to withstand the fear of battle, stench, excitement, etc. In fact, aside from the Ranyhyn, I do not think there are any breed of horse that would qualify to be cavalry steeds. And of course, they can not be enlisted either.

Which comes to possibly the biggest disadvantage that Hile Troy had to work with: there is little to no unity amongst the races of the Land that are not allied with Foul, whereas any people under Foul's influence can and would be enlisted. Simply saying, "we need to unite the various races" is just not feasible, particularly in the timeline given Troy.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome wrote:
Vraith wrote:
I don't know...that stragegy, among any number of other things, seems to require far more people than actually exist in the Land to even begin to execute it. [and that's just the folk in the forces themselves, not even taking into account the folk needed to support such a force].


This particular war strategy doesn't presuppose having access to any more people than Hile Troy did in the Eoward. It merely changes how they are organized, equipped, trained and employed in order to make use of ancient and modern advances in warfare.


I don't know where it went, but I replied to this once already...I'm not gonna recreate it at length.
You assume the Lords and such aren't recruiting everyone they can as best they can and training them.
What Wood-folk are you using for archers? And what mounts? Where do they come from?? [and quibble=Agincourt didn't work/happen as you imply].
5-10k haruchai? that's probably equal or greater than their total population.
Your scout missions use up almost all the lords, a big chunk of bloodguard...and assume LF or some minion won't see them and send a measly [from their view] 1,2,5 thousand to deal with them...and they need lomilliar rods...which don't exist. [also ignores the fact that the Ramen are the best damn scouts that exist].
The Giants are Dead.
The opponents aren't anywhere near as weak...in any way...as even the most powerful opponents the romans faced.
Most important, EVERY strategy would have failed, cuz LF has visions. Those visions may be wrong/misinterpreted in endpoint...but nothing prevents those key moments he sees from coming to be.

[most important from reader view, it "meta-plans" selectively, bending the integrity of the story.]

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orlion wrote:
All right, some basic things:

1) The Giants are not available. They were separated, and then annihilated. The Waynhim can not be contacted if they do not want to be. Their culture is such as well that I do not think they could help in providing information about ur-viles. Haruchai, based on on their culture, would also not be used. After all, they were still at the point were the Bloodguard 'suffice'.

2) The abilities of the people of the Land to raise an army and gather resources to develope weaponry etc. is waaay over assumed. This is a post-apocalyptic culture that has just managed to get a foothold and is developing a culture. Because of their various abilities, they do not seem to be advanced in mining, smelting, or even forging.

3) You seem to be ignoring a lot of the supernatural aspects of Foul's armies. It is just more than numbers, Fleshharrower with his piece of the Illearth stone is able to warp the environment around him, fill the air with fear, etc. Meanwhile, the ur-viles are just formidable in of themselves. Never mind that you also have squadrons upon squadrons of undead/deformed folk that need no feeding and do not tire and only stop once you put them down.

That's a lot of things that military experience has never dealt with in our world. It does no good to have a cavalry if you do not have horses that can be breed to withstand the fear of battle, stench, excitement, etc. In fact, aside from the Ranyhyn, I do not think there are any breed of horse that would qualify to be cavalry steeds. And of course, they can not be enlisted either.

Which comes to possibly the biggest disadvantage that Hile Troy had to work with: there is little to no unity amongst the races of the Land that are not allied with Foul, whereas any people under Foul's influence can and would be enlisted. Simply saying, "we need to unite the various races" is just not feasible, particularly in the timeline given Troy.



Interesting points, but resourceful and determined Warward commander backed up by a committed and extravagantly talented High Lord could probably still have overcome. Point by point:

1) The giants, had they been approached, may have been able to provide some Swordmains ... speculation, since they never were approached by Hile Troy, or High Lord Elena who was quite persuasive, as far as we know. Ditto for the Waynhim ... you don't ask, you certainly don't get. I'll concede your point about the Haruchai, but would still employ them as depicted in the War Strategy, just in reduced numbers.

2) This is basic military recruitment and training 101, the kind of work which truly competent organizers throughout history (e.g., Marius with Romans, Guderian and Model with Germans, Marshall with Americans) have done. With the right process it's a simple process to transform farmboys or shellshocked stragglers into lethal, highly trained warriors. The armament proposed requires no more resources or mining/smelting than the ones Hile Troy had access to ... just allocated for different purposes.

3) Please allow me to respectfully disagree that the proposed war strategy ignores either Fleshharrower's fragment of the Illearth Stone, the ur-viles or the masses of Stone-warped. The addition of numerous Lords would counteract Fleshharrower and his ur-vile wedges from doing significant damage until Elena could assassinate him. Keep in mind, Lord Foul provided Fleshharrower significantly fewer ur-viles in the Illearth War than he allocated to Satansfist in The Power That Preserves. Finally, the Stone-warped creatures did need provisions of meat (which is why the Waynhim attacked their carrion supplies outside of Revelstone in the following war) and proved susceptible to death by all normal weapons.

Additionally, Hiltmark Quaan was able to assemble a significant cavalry force, with well trained and disciplined steeds that held Fleshharrower's entire army at bay for nearly a week. Even in retreat, menaced by thousands of kresh, their war-worthiness prevented it from becoming a rout. Sadly, Hile Troy had failed to equip them with any weapons other than swords ... not exactly the best weapon for fighting wolves from horseback.

You make a good point about the disunity of the various races, and perhaps it would have been a critical liability. But had High Lord Elena traveled the length and breadth of the Land and put forth her otherworldly and essentially irresistible charm, it's possible she could have inspired a united effort. She didn't, so we we'll never know how effective it could have been.
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Last edited by Welcome on Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
Welcome wrote:
Vraith wrote:
I don't know...that stragegy, among any number of other things, seems to require far more people than actually exist in the Land to even begin to execute it. [and that's just the folk in the forces themselves, not even taking into account the folk needed to support such a force].


This particular war strategy doesn't presuppose having access to any more people than Hile Troy did in the Eoward. It merely changes how they are organized, equipped, trained and employed in order to make use of ancient and modern advances in warfare.


I don't know where it went, but I replied to this once already...I'm not gonna recreate it at length.
You assume the Lords and such aren't recruiting everyone they can as best they can and training them.
What Wood-folk are you using for archers? And what mounts? Where do they come from?? [and quibble=Agincourt didn't work/happen as you imply].
5-10k haruchai? that's probably equal or greater than their total population.
Your scout missions use up almost all the lords, a big chunk of bloodguard...and assume LF or some minion won't see them and send a measly [from their view] 1,2,5 thousand to deal with them...and they need lomilliar rods...which don't exist. [also ignores the fact that the Ramen are the best damn scouts that exist].
The Giants are Dead.
The opponents aren't anywhere near as weak...in any way...as even the most powerful opponents the romans faced.
Most important, EVERY strategy would have failed, cuz LF has visions. Those visions may be wrong/misinterpreted in endpoint...but nothing prevents those key moments he sees from coming to be.

[most important from reader view, it "meta-plans" selectively, bending the integrity of the story.]



Excellent points, please allow me to address them in turn.

You assume the Lords and such aren't recruiting everyone they can as best they can and training them.

I do assume the Lords are recruiting everyone they can. Where I disagree is in the training, equipping and employment of those troops.

What Wood-folk are you using for archers?

Woodhelvennin archers, and whichever folks from the Plains and Stonedowns and other areas of the Land who demonstrated proficiency with a bow.

And what mounts? Where do they come from??

The same mounts Hile Troy assembled to equip Hiltmark Quaan's cavalry force that held up Fleshharrower's entire army for almost a week and conducted a brilliant, disciplined retreat. But had they organized a disciplined and widespread program to breed additional horses there would have been significantly more mounts available.

[and quibble=Agincourt didn't work/happen as you imply].

Quite possibly; I'm no expert on ancient English/French conflicts. But Hile Troy was; he would have known what worked and what didn't, and how to incorporate those lessons into preparing the Warward. The Wikipedia summary of Agincourt says the English longbowmen engaged from approximately 300 yards (not 500) but they were shooting at French knights heavily armored in plate mail; I assume unarmored Stone-warped creatures could have been engaged effectively from 400-500 yards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt

5-10k haruchai? that's probably equal or greater than their total population.

Stephen Donaldson describes the Haruchai as being a prolific race, and of having assembled a huge army to challenge High Lord Kevin. The 500-Haruchai Bloodguard was merely a fraction of that army. There is no mention of any calamity that would have significantly decreased the population of the Haruchai in the intervening times, so it's probably safe to assume these numbers. But even if not, a thousand Haruchai would still suffice for the purposes of the proposed war strategy.

Your scout missions use up almost all the lords, a big chunk of bloodguard...and assume LF or some minion won't see them and send a measly [from their view] 1,2,5 thousand to deal with them...and they need lomilliar rods...which don't exist. [also ignores the fact that the Ramen are the best damn scouts that exist].

Under the proposed strategy there would be at least an order of magnitude increase in the number of Lords, leaving adequate numbers available for scout duties and main force activities. Yes, the production of lomilialor rods would have had to have increased, but then they were pretty much a hobby for Revelwood; had they been given higher priority it is likely a greater number could have been produced. The addition of disciplined Ranyhyn-mounted Lord/Haruchai patrols with working long-range communications provides a resilient and adaptable scouting capability that would easily outmaneuver however many thousand kresh or ur-viles Lord Foul chose to send against them. Nothing outruns a Ranyhyn; apparently even Ramen Manethralls can keep pace with them merely over short sprints.

The Giants are Dead.

Had a dozen or two Swordmains been recruited and garrisoned with the Warward, they would have survived Kinslaughterer's assault agains Coercri. And boy would they be pissed!

The opponents aren't anywhere near as weak...in any way...as even the most powerful opponents the romans faced.

Quite true, but remember Thermopylae. By choosing an intelligent ambush site and employing sound tactics several thousand Greek hoplites, spearheaded by 300 Spartan hoplites, slew vastly disproportionate numbers of Persian warriors including the famed Immortals. And Hile Troy had access to numerous ambush sites and would have mobile cavalry regiments to prevent his main army being surrounded, which was what finished the Spartans. An army travels on its stomach; every day of delay is an additional day that the tens of thousands of Fleshharrower's Stone-warped monsters start to go hungry ... it's only a matter of time before they start eating each other and Fleshharrower's effective strength begins to dwindle.

Most important, EVERY strategy would have failed, cuz LF has visions. Those visions may be wrong/misinterpreted in endpoint...but nothing prevents those key moments he sees from coming to be.

True, true. But Lord Foul doesn't have a monopoly on visions. There's a certain Lord by the name of Mhoram who has some seer-like abilities of his own. My money is on him ... and a High Lord Elena who sticks with the army ... and an army radically radically different in composition, specialization, armament, strategy and tactics than the one Hile Troy chose to field.

But hey, a military victory over Lord Foul would spoil the plot of The Illearth War which is by far my favorite book of the First and Second Chronicles ... so perhaps it's better Hile Troy didn't choose that path.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we all forget, occasionally, the true supernatural power they were facing here. I certainly did in my last post. It almost killed Mhoram to fight that Raver, and he was ridiculously lucky, both in timing, weaponry, the actions of Fleshharrower, and his own astounding endurance. That's one Raver, with a fragment of the stone. Personally, I think the only reason Foul doesn't kill everything under the Arch is based in hs immortality. He has time to kill, pun intended. But if you pissed him off enough, well, there are other places and people to corrupt than those in the Land. I've no doubt he could have obliterated the entire army single handedly. He didn't because he didn't want to waste the chance to corrupt them. This strategy change may have angered him enough to give up on the Land, kill them all, and go torment another area.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sherman Landlearner wrote:
I think we all forget, occasionally, the true supernatural power they were facing here. I certainly did in my last post. It almost killed Mhoram to fight that Raver, and he was ridiculously lucky, both in timing, weaponry, the actions of Fleshharrower, and his own astounding endurance. That's one Raver, with a fragment of the stone. Personally, I think the only reason Foul doesn't kill everything under the Arch is based in hs immortality. He has time to kill, pun intended. But if you pissed him off enough, well, there are other places and people to corrupt than those in the Land. I've no doubt he could have obliterated the entire army single handedly. He didn't because he didn't want to waste the chance to corrupt them. This strategy change may have angered him enough to give up on the Land, kill them all, and go torment another area.

I think that if Foul does have a far greaeter capacity for destruction than he has displayed, the difference is based in his desire for the white gold.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point. If an enemy allows you to see their final goal, blocking them from it is easier. Since all he wants is escape, he wants the Arch broken. The only two ways to do that is wake the Worm, which he would have already done if he had that power. Or, of course, white gold. So as long as white gold isn't given to him freely, he loses. Forever. He can play, but that can't last forever. In fact... If he was allowed to corrupt the world, he'd eventually run out of things to corrupt. As an immortal, boredom could eventually force him into altruism, purifying the world to corrupt it once more. Might be a good idea. After all, he can't ever be stopped, so perhaps focus should be on modifying, not halting. If you make him a nice, cheery fellow, you won't have so many issues all the time, right?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He finds the world around him to be despicable. He corrupts things because that is the only way he can interact with such...inferior...blobs. He probably wouldn't interact with the world unless he thought it would help him on his goal to break free from his prison.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sherman Landlearner wrote:
Good point. If an enemy allows you to see their final goal, blocking them from it is easier. Since all he wants is escape, he wants the Arch broken. The only two ways to do that is wake the Worm, which he would have already done if he had that power. Or, of course, white gold. So as long as white gold isn't given to him freely, he loses. Forever. He can play, but that can't last forever. In fact... If he was allowed to corrupt the world, he'd eventually run out of things to corrupt. As an immortal, boredom could eventually force him into altruism, purifying the world to corrupt it once more. Might be a good idea. After all, he can't ever be stopped, so perhaps focus should be on modifying, not halting. If you make him a nice, cheery fellow, you won't have so many issues all the time, right?

Maybe. But there's also something that Foul said.

"Now you do in truth see me, groveler. Do you yet believe that you are my master? Fool! I grew beyond your petty wisdom and belief long before your world's babyhood. I tell you plainly, groveler - Despite such as mine is the only true insight of experience and insight. In time you will not do otherwise than I have done. You will learn contempt for your fellow beings - for their small malices that they misname their loves and beliefs and hopes and loyalties. You will learn that it is easier to control than to forebear - easier and better. You will not do otherwise. You will become a shadow of what I am - you will be a despiser without the courage to despise. Continue, groveler. Destroy my work if you must - slay me if you can - but I grow weary of your shallow misperception."

"In spite of himself, Covenant was moved. Lord Foul's lordrly mien, his dignity and resignation, spoke more vividly than cursing or defiance. Covenant saw that he still had answers to find, regardless of all he had endured."

I certainly don't see that Foul's statement offers any answers - it just suggests questions I wasn't particularly sure were relevant to him, and I still don't know to what extent his words represent a ploy, a delusion or a fundamental and everlasting force that Lord Foul is true to, yet exceeds him in scope (I suggest this, since he seems to claim he has grown from experience and insight). Well, I wanted to offer some context, though I bet this whole chapter struck a lot of us when we read it hard enough that none is needed, but the bolded line is what I particularly wanted to offer.

"You will become a shadow of what I am - you will be a despiser without the courage to despise." Foul himself already was cloaked in a shadow of sorts, before Covenant revealed his "true self" - his hateful eyes were the thing that remained constant. So it's tough to know what to make of this XD But if Foul, unlike what he thinks Covenant will become, isn't "a despiser without the courage to despise," I wonder what that means. The way I see it, it most likely means that Foul thinks Covenant will control because it is "in the interests of what Covenant is controlling." Maybe that is how Foul looks at Covenant once Covenant's transformation at the end of the second trilogy comes about (I am not so good on the second or third chronicles, especially not on Foul). Maybe Foul is so sure of absolute destruction of the Land and the world, and/or his escape from the arch, coming "on time" that he won't have to consider "remaking" anything in order to destroy or torture it. As to whether he's right to be sure of that, or what he would do if he turned out to be wrong, I can't really say, obviously XD Maybe Foul would just sit on his ass and do nothing.

I certainly agree that in some way, treating with Foul might be desirable or helpful, if it was at all possible. He seems so powerful that when it comes to say, the interests of the people of the land, he may be able to squash them as easily with force or deception. Of course, what appears to be his most destructive power seems to be exercised on Covenant, and those are the moments in the books when the battles seem to most take on a metaphorical and hallucinatory quality, so that's the point (for me) when I become a bit confused and say "well, I don't know if Foul just dropped a mountain on Covenant, or Foul just made Covenant feel like he dropped a mountain on Covenant."

I'm not really disagreeing with you, I'm just going on.
Quote:
He finds the world around him to be despicable. He corrupts things because that is the only way he can interact with such...inferior...blobs. He probably wouldn't interact with the world unless he thought it would help him on his goal to break free from his prison.

Ya...that is something else I think is true. But it still seems odd that so many of Foul's setbacks seem to come from good impulses, and so few of them come from bad impulses. Because of that, I do suspect he might just like it more when people suffer, than when they're happy, even if it isn't really very important to him. I mean, it doesn't seem like there would be much point in Foul destroying Revelstone in TPTP, if he wants to get the ring. I guess maybe he thought Covenant might be in there, or wanted to use the Krill as an alarm-clock to tell him if Covenant was around. But I'd think keeping the lords alive would be far more important so they could summon Covenant, if he wasn't there already.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the ring is worthless without being given, not taken. Covenant loves Revelstone and the Land. If he destroys it, he thinks Covenant will GIVE him the ring. The giving is the important thing.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sherman Landlearner wrote:
But the ring is worthless without being given, not taken. Covenant loves Revelstone and the Land. If he destroys it, he thinks Covenant will GIVE him the ring. The giving is the important thing.

That's true. I suppose that having an image of revelstone besieged was important to Foul. But it seems like Foul could have given Covenant that image of Revelstone destroyed anyway. I think that at some point during that fight, Covenant sees Mhoram's victory...I wonder if Foul could have avoided something like that simply by pushing the lord's a little less, and if the hope from something like that helped Covenant at all. Foul's attention was drawn from the battle at Revelstone when Mhoram won...and did Foul losing his attention on Revelstone help Covenant beat Foul? If so, I think Foul could have avoided the situation by paying less attention to Revelstone. Maybe I'm wrong.

At this point, though, not only am I providing an explanation for why Foul should have acted differently, but I'm acting more like a critic of Foul's machinations, rather than criticizing his motivations. It's all in hindsight, and Foul certainly has better foresight into the land than I do, except insofar as I have probably read more Donaldson and more fantasy than Foul has (but probably not as much as Donaldson has). And if Foul gets what he wants in the last chronicles - even by something like what you said, with Foul being in some way mollified or redirected - maybe my plan was inferior anyway.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Giants are Dead.

Had a dozen or two Swordmains been recruited and garrisoned with the Warward, they would have survived Kinslaughterer's assault agains Coercri. And boy would they be pissed!


You forget. The Giants had not been heard from for 3 years. The sarangrave was impassable. EVERY mission sent to check on them failed. An entire eoman failed. 11 Haruchai barely got there and it almost killed them to get through Lifeswallower, only to see the last Giant die.

so, who would have gone to recruit them?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iQuestor wrote:
Quote:
The Giants are Dead.

Had a dozen or two Swordmains been recruited and garrisoned with the Warward, they would have survived Kinslaughterer's assault agains Coercri. And boy would they be pissed!


You forget. The Giants had not been heard from for 3 years. The sarangrave was impassable. EVERY mission sent to check on them failed. An entire eoman failed. 11 Haruchai barely got there and it almost killed them to get through Lifeswallower, only to see the last Giant die.

so, who would have gone to recruit them?

It's still a point, insofar as there never were any such giants garrisoned in the warward (as far as we know), and there weren't when TC reaches revelstone.

But that is something about the giants. They are not bloodguard, nor ranyhyn. They have their own respect for the land, and their own duty; before you wish the giants were fighting in the war, remember that they built revelstone.

They are also waiting to leave the land, and always have been. Even if giants had been with the warward, the work on the ships might have taken them away from it.
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