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Defend the Land!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think, while they can fight if needsbe Giants are too cheery to choose to fight. They'd probably have offered other aid if they could. Besides, look at Foamfollower. They'd have Corrupted the Giants with battle. It wouldn't have been right.
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we can take an example from the "real" world, the Soviet Union under Stalin was able to survive the massive Axis invasion in 1941-43 and ultimately play the most significant role of any single Allied country in defeating Nazi Germany. In the opinion of reputable hsitorians, one of the reasons why it was able to do this was because the totalitarian Stalinist state plus command economy, for all its evils, was very well adapted for single-mindedly fighting a desperate war for national survival against an utterly brutal, powerful and unscrupulous foe. Unfortunately a totalitarian state coupled with a command economy is not much good for anything else, and not the sort of society that people want to live in.

Returning to the Land, even if it was technically feasible for the Lords and their allies to have done what was militarily necessary to resist Foul indefinitely (and a number of commentators have cited good reasons why this probably wasn't the case), decent people like the Lords would not have wanted to turn the Land into the sort of place it probably would have needed to be (e.g. something like Stalin's USSR) to sustain the war effort.
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good Post
A very thoughtful post reviving a classic thread.

What occurs to me is that the means of production are completely different. Unlike a commanded industrial economy drawing resources from felling forests and mining the earth, the people of the Land coexist with the Land and have lore / magic to both coax beneficial outcomes from the land and to practice diligent stewardship of the Land. Stone and Wood are not savaged, but sustained.

By the way, the US was the other massive producer of Allied war material, while operating under entirely different political and economic models than "a totalitarian state coupled with a command economy." Still very different than the society of the Land, but probably not as repugnant for Land people to live in...although they still would be uncomfortable with either culture's slash, dig, take attitude toward the natural world.

Come to think of it, what happens to the Land in the 2nd Chrons is an interesting adaptation of DrPaul's concept. The Clave and the Sunbane essentially command the forces of nature to extremes and extract blood tribute from the people (not to mention the Haruchai) to support that abomination while falsely claiming to strive to control it and eventually end it.

Can this analogy extend outside a WWII and the Land framework? Apply to current events? That's a conversation for the Tank...
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, I loved this thread. Very Happy

I don't think it would have been possible for the Lords to build that sort of system. Not just from a technological and social point of view, but purely from an "available manpower" one.

They didn't have the population to drive that sort of production, even if it were desirable or otherwise feasible. WWII casualties for Russia are estimated to be in the region of 20 million. (Civilian and military.)

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that "Turning Land society into a war society is as much of a corruption as anything Foul could do."

However, more recently I have come to the opinion that, had the people of the Land been willing to destroy so much of what they loved in order to win the war, then Foul would only have waged his war in some other way. I think Foul chose using a numerically overwhelming army because it was exactly that which would drive Troy and the Lords to act from despair. Which was his real goal - he didn't need to destroy Revelwood or Revelstone or even the Warward for any military purpose. What he needed was hopelessness.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting idea. I certainly agree with that last bit...his objective certainly wasn't to capture anything.

Interestingly, Troy did end up acting from despair...but it worked...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I don't believe it worked. The end does not justify the means - too many defenders were lost.

And yet, maybe Amok had been programmed to lead the Staff of Law away from war, and any danger of it being recaptured - the Seventh Ward, nothing more than a Fool's Errand.
A clue is in Bannor and Morin's reluctance to relay vital information ... and Covenant's apparent lack of insight interpreting his own dreams.

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' ... modelling the incoherent and vertiginous matter of which dreams are composed was the most difficult task a man could undertake ...' And on another page it said, '... the dreams of men belong to God ...'
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Troy "succeeded" because he entered the trap rather than avoid it. Not intentionally, of course, but he did - he fought the war on Foul's terms, and felt the Despair. It boots nothing to avoid his snares, etc.

And I believe that Foul underestimated Troy because he is from our world and Foul couldn't imagine what he was capable of when truly desperate. And that's why Troy eeked out a victory.

It's all very martial arts, in a way ... you don't stop a larger opponent, but instead you let them make their move, and then somehow subvert it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like The Killing Stroke! Very Happy

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