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Bakker's The Prince of Nothing series
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Hiro, thanks for the lengthy response! You make some excellent points. I encourage opposing points of view. I want to like this book. I want to be shown how I'm wrong.

The comparison to TLD was interesting. Like you, I thought TLD was a failure, and my complaints mirror my problems with TUC--which is ironic, given how the two books are almost exact opposite in their conclusions.

Spoiler:
Your explanations for the problems I had seem mostly plausible. I still think that the Dunyain could have met Kellhus prior to the battle and said, "Let's talk," especially since there was a parley, of sorts, before the fighting began. If they wanted to talk to him, I'm not sure why he had to fight his way to the Golden Room.

You're right about the hologram, I suppose, although we're not given any info on why Kellhus has a power that's the equivalent of the Judging Eye, in that regard. Also, his ability to see is a bit arbitrary. If he can see through holograms, see through faces, and has the power of a God, why can't he tell that Sorweel was an assassin (especially when Kelmo could)?

You're right about Kelmo not killing Kellhus. I forgot that. However, it makes his role even more questionable. Kellhus can be startled? Is that the only reason why Kelmo was there? To be a distraction? How did they know that would work or would be needed? If this was a Dunsult plan, it's one of the most implausible aspects of the entire series--that they'd know about Kelmo, know his mother would free him, know that Kellhus would be distracted by him, know that this distraction would be necessary, know that Kellhus wouldn't see him until it was too late, etc. It seems to come out of nowhere.

Whether or not Kellhus was good/evil, mad/sane, doesn't seem so ambiguous to me. Is there any evidence in his actions that he was crazy? All his plotting and mastery of events seem to argue otherwise, a very rational and effective strategy (until the end). Likewise, the only "evidence" we have that he might be evil comes in the form of suspicions of the characters, mainly Akka and Cnaiur. And those suspicions come only from the fact that they know Kellhus is Dunyain--i.e. that they know Kellhus isn't exactly what he pretends to be. But what is it about being Dunyain or pretending to be Holy that makes one evil? If you don't buy into religion (like me), this isn't problematic. I just don't see any evidence to support the claim of ambiguity, except for manufactured effect of the author. Even Kel's treatment of Proyus in TGO makes sense in the context of his goals. And the fact that there is a Thousandfold Thought undermines the possibility that Kellhus can be evil or mad, because we automatically assume that every outrageous thing he does is merely part of a deeper plot.

With that said, I do agree that this series was successful right up until the final volume, and I enjoyed it more than the Last Chronicles.


Z, you're welcome. I am indulging a little bit here, cause I was curious about your reaction. It is ironic, TUC and TLD...

Spoiler:
The hologram and Kellhus: well, the metaphysics of this world are ambiguous and complicated. Problems like these echo my problems with the 3rd Chrons as well, all those different Power-players, hard to relate to and make sense of.

Kelmomas: Kellhus is not so much startled, but Ajokli who possessed Kellhus is forced or pulled out or pushed away when Kel - being the No-God arrives. As soon as Ajokli and his power leaves, his control of the GR leaves with him. And Kellhus dies.

Kellhus: well, that is the thing. Consider Proyas, I've read a lot of people crying foul about where Proyas ends up. I disagree. He seems a righteous man, but he's really a dangerous fanatic. Similarly, yes the Consult are evil, but man does Kellhus kill off directly or indirectly a lot of people after becoming the Aspect Emperor. In the Unification War before the Ordeal, during the Ordeal. The Dunyain use people, in subtle and horrible ways. That's fairly evil, as confirmed by Mimara as well. The thematic parallels between Dunyain and Consult are striking. And look what we get in the climax, the Dunsult. The ambiguity here chiefly lies in Kellhus's concealed motives. Yes, we assume a lot reading these novels. And these assumptions are put to a serious stress test.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose being a moral relativist, pragmatist, atheist, and war hawk, I'm not an easy target for Bakker's attempts at outraging his audience with moral ambiguity. Sure, Kellhus killed a lot of people, but that's war. Saving the world requires extreme sacrifices, sometimes. Hell, when I first met my wife, I shocked her by claiming that rape isn't absolutely evil (I don't believe in absolute good/evil, think that morality is nothing more than our preferences). So I suppose I was expecting Bakker to be playing a mind game with us, trying to shock us, trying to engage our outrage, and I just assumed he was too smart to be doing it without a backup plan, without some larger point. I trusted him, in the sense that I expected his message to be more complex than "Kellhus is evil." And I suppose that's why I don't see any ambiguity, because I see through the moral challenges Bakker threw up as smoke screens for people who are more inclined to absolutes. I imagine a Christian might have a harder time reading this, and reconciling the necessity of Kellhus's actions. After all, the book is in many ways a Nietzschean subversion of Christian ethics and Christianity. Kellhus might seem like an anti-Christ to people of faith.

I suppose there is some ambiguity in Kellhus's motivations, but this is only apparent at the very end when he reveals that ....
Spoiler:

he wanted to conquer the Outside.


I have no idea if that's good or bad, because Bakker doesn't give us any information to evaluate it. Again, if you're a Christian, it might seem blasphemous. But in my mind, it would be pretty cool. So I have no trouble siding with Kellhus even in the very end when his hidden motivations are revealed.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting posts guys.

Still not buying the whole Ajokli thing...possessed since the Circumfix?

Agree with Z about the morality thing...if he really is saving the world, then logically whatever is necessary to achieve that end is acceptable.

Spoiler:
Found his death very anti-climatic though.


Don't trust Mim's Judging Eye either. Spoiler:
And really don't like the whole hologram thing at all...seems both unnecessary and somehow too easy.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I notice that Madness is no longer participating in our discussion here. That's a shame. I saw on the Second Apocalypse forums where he said he had little patience for "fair weather fans." I really hope that was a joke and he's not the kind of person who blames fans for their negative opinions (we've seen way too much of that here, back in 2013). No one wanted Bakker to pull any punches. Brutal and dark is fine. Even the catastrophic ending is fine (since there are more books to come ... otherwise, no, it's not successful as an ending). As everyone keeps saying, it was the execution that bothers them.

Hiro, you've been mature and gracious in dealing with us "fair weather fans." Laughing I appreciate it.

So, back to the book. Spoiler:
Kelmo was the No-God all along? Even before he actually got turned into the No-God?
What does that mean? How did it happen? How are we supposed to know that without the author telling us on message boards? If so many questions need to be answered outside of the text, isn't that evidence that he failed in his execution?

I thought we were obsessive geeks here (well, not really), but over on the Second Apocalypse you've got people proposing questions for Bakker like, "Were all the Norisori really blond, or was that just a literary device?" We've got one of the richest, deepest, most philosophical works of fiction ever produced for this genre, and fans are asking about the hair color of fictional people? THAT'S obsessively geeky! LOL. Honestly, I could have done with quite a bit less description of every person's hair/facial hair/clothing. I know that people think this adds culture and world-building, but when someone is dying in a battle, their hair and clothing are the last things I care about. Surely, the middle of the apocalypse is the one of those times when fashion DOES NOT MATTER. Jesus ... I mean, Sejunus!

And speaking of world-building ... I've got to give Bakker credit for the sheer number of names, nations, places, etc. that he has invented. That kind of thing is certainly not my forte. Like Donaldson, I only invent what I need. World building--unless it's Tolkien--bores me in almost every book I read, and the more detail, the more bored I get. I'm not impressed with the "realism," because it's almost always arbitrary and needless complexity for the sake of appearance, with little impact on the plot. While I agree whole-heartedly that Bakker's story is extremely original in terms of characters, style, and theme, I can't believe he doesn't get more grief for how he transparently copied the Crusades, how he just took Christianity and Islam, and all the people/places involved, and made up a bunch of substitute names for them. Ditto for things like "wracu." Coming up with a new name for Jesus, Christianity, Islam, Jerusalem, and dragons doesn't mean you've done anything original. In terms of world-building, it's the literary equivalent of a cover tune. You might put your own spin on it, but you haven't written a new song.

Alright, now that I've gotten that out of my system, I'll say that I still hold Bakker in high regard, and consider him one of my top 3 favorite writers. However, Tolkien and Donaldson still hold the first two slots. After 7 books, Bakker hasn't been able to supplant either of them. If anything, he has moved down on my list since reading the first 3.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brinn wrote:
Spoiler:
I don't mind the dark ending
. It's classic Bakker, a subversion of standard fantasy tropes.
I guess I just don't understand writing in a genre that you want to subvert. If you think the genre tropes are cliche, then what is it about the genre that you like enough to build a career writing in it? Writing with the aim of subverting something--just for the sake of subversion--is no less derivative than writing in order to mimic something ... which Bakker certainly does with his "Moria set piece," among others. If you truly want to transcend fantasy tropes, then do something entirely different. Having the good guys win in the end--and yet STILL surprising readers who are expecting that ending--is an art much greater than simply letting the bad guys win. Anyone can do that. There's a very good reason not to: it's a bad ending. If your purpose in writing is to leave people dissatisfied, I'm not sure why you're writing. That's more like trolling.

Brinn wrote:
Spoiler:
Might as well have said that Kellhus tripped on a root and broke his neck while approaching the upright horn and then the No-God walked!
Exactly! And not only that, but to let it happen off-screen, and told in flashback after we already know it has occurred! Just horrible story telling choices. The only explanation I can think of for such bad choices is the overriding desire to thwart reader expectations. It's almost like he purposely didn't write a good ending precisely because people were expecting one! His desire to confound readers became such an overriding imperative, that he sacrificed his own ability to write a good ending .... in order to surprise people.

It's bizarre.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche


Last edited by Zarathustra on Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to join the Second Apocalypse forum, but the registration process requires that I agree not to post anything "obscene, profane, sexually oriented." Are you prudes fucking kidding me?? A forum dedicated to a book that has fights with dragons where the primary subject of dialog is the smell of pussy, and I'm not allowed to be obscene or profane in my remarks??? What fucking series are you nerds reading???
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hahaha.

Agree about him going down in my estimation after this series. There's no doubt to me that the first series was by far better than the second one. It's the second one where he got all long-winded and complicated.

Agree about the whole religion thing...thought I'd complained about it before, but looks like it wasn't in this thread if I did.

Personally, I'm a big fan of world-building. The more detailed and fleshed-out a world is, the more I like it. (Like Jordan's WoT world for example.) That said, it's not necessary to describe every minor character's attributes either.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
I was going to join the Second Apocalypse forum, but the registration process requires that I agree not to post anything "obscene, profane, sexually oriented." Are you prudes fucking kidding me?? A forum dedicated to a book that has fights with dragons where the primary subject of dialog is the smell of pussy, and I'm not allowed to be obscene or profane in my remarks??? What fucking series are you nerds reading???


Lmao.

I'm so sorry, Zarathustra. We can't even get people to read the bold part at the top half the time.

Rest assured those are stock SMF rules and I've never even touched. I will most certainly give it a gander so that this situation doesn't arise again.

Gall...

Yeah, I'm just sorry about that.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoa, someone had a bit too much to drink last night. Embarassed Sorry about that. As a nerd myself, I just wanted everyone to know that I used that as a term of endearment. What up, my nerds? Laughing
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
I notice that Madness is no longer participating in our discussion here. That's a shame. I saw on the Second Apocalypse forums where he said he had little patience for "fair weather fans." I really hope that was a joke and he's not the kind of person who blames fans for their negative opinions (we've seen way too much of that here, back in 2013). No one wanted Bakker to pull any punches. Brutal and dark is fine. Even the catastrophic ending is fine (since there are more books to come ... otherwise, no, it's not successful as an ending). As everyone keeps saying, it was the execution that bothers them.

Hiro, you've been mature and gracious in dealing with us "fair weather fans."


And apologies for this as well, Zarathustra.

I'm actually not done reading the canon artifact yet (the published book) and seeing as I haven't had time to read it, I haven't had much time to post and discuss either (though, I'm also somewhat limited regardless because of things Bakker has told me about the third series). I barely have enough time in my day to keep up on fandom due diligence, as I see it (time I only have because I'm still recovering from a broken foot), what with the recent Zaudunyanicon and the uptick of about 10x the amount of active members and posting since TUC release.

And the "fair weather fans" comment is most certainly a dig at the Westerosi, though I'm not sure what I meant translated very well (and obviously didn't if it landed here). I think people have a very easy time dismissing a difficult text. I saw it all the time in academia, much less as the bias seems to manifest in genre. I also am far too involved in the social experiment that I've created so I'm also speaking to the most contemporary moments across a fandom divided between online mediums.

As I've quoted far too often, something I mentioned to my #2 at SA: I care not if you hate so long as you participate. And I've always maintained to Hiro, whom I talk with a great deal, that I respect the words you all write here and I'd be wildly hypocritical if I dismissed your words now that we don't overlap so much in our opinions.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said, Madness. Very classy. I was probably being a tad defensive in that post, walking ground that was conditioned by my experiences here, you could say. The debate over Donaldson's last book got very heated here, and some long time members (close to a decade) were made to feel that their opinions weren't legitimate and their participation was unwelcome. Thanks for the clarification.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do hope you'll still sign up at SA - as we very much don't enforce that sexuality, vulgarity, whatever rule Wink. And when they post, if infrequently, Brinn and Hiro have always provided some more sober balance to whatever conversation in which they partake!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good posts. Know what you mean about the time constraints. Glad to see you still around.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm nowhere near done with the book yet, but some thoughts on me brought on by Kelmomas (sp?)

Spoiler:
You know, Kelmomas was probably among my least favorite characters in the series. But strangely, once he was caught, he seems to actually be a bit more worthy of thought.

As far as I know, I've never killed a sibling - or anyone. I think I have a reason to be proud of the paid work I do, even if I'm not supporting myself on that wage by any measure. But the reason I'm not proud is because, after coming to respect myself as a very minor cog in a answering service, I came to wonder about the 26 or 27 years I lived prior to that cog, and how many of those years were really necessary to bring me to this point. For me, this is a source of fear and anger - more fear these days than anger - and so even though I don't think my crimes qualify as "positively evil" (i.e. moments of evil committed by me), barring seeing my life as a mass hallucination. However I think the years of my life qualify as "negative evil" (i.e. moments of indifference, hatred, and abandonment of others committed by me).

Somehow, now that Kelmomamas fears for his life more than ever before, I can respect him a little.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re-reading The Prince of Nothing before diving into The Aspect Emperor. Should be fun!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried joining the Second Apocalypse forum. After creating a user name and password, receiving my email confirmation, I was waiting on admin approval. Now it says that the user name "Artsuhtaraz" (Zarathustra backwards) doesn't exist.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a huge post. I hope it garners some further discussion, as I just finished up the book today.

1: So I'm pretty sure I'm serving Golgotterath. I've been working at an emergency service for doctors and we get a lot of calls for consults. And they ain't from no priests Wink .

2: I'm also pretty sure that Trump Tower is Golgotterath, because Trump has a giant set of golden rooms there. I'm not sure if this makes Trump Aurang, Aurax, or Sheanora. No offense Trumpers, but I'm pretty sure Trump isn't Kellhus...unlessssss...

And from hereon out, I'll try and stop being completely stupid:
I saw complaints about Serwe's fight with the wracu. I think that there can be no doubt that the 99 chorae have some strange and weird connection to the 99 pebbles thrown by that dunyain guy akka and mimara met. However, I'm not in the mood to go back to the books and seek an answer to that.

The main thing I loved about the scene with Serwe's fight was actually the lead-up. Bakker describes Kayutas and Serwe as (I'm about to paraphrase) "almost able to feel and to be hurt." I found this a strikingly beautiful way of describing a couple of Kellhus's children. More than anything else, Bakker seems to go through efforts and pains to largely dehumanize Kellhus and his children. I'm not sure I can entirely disagree - he's the writer and those are the characters he wrote - but I liked that I saw something a little different from them right before their end. I think it gives us insight to the idea that dunyain aren't just made genetically, they're made culturally. And so Kellhus trained his own from an early age...I think maybe when one being attempts emotion as a mimicry and another responds, the mimicry of emotion may sometimes become emotion. Whether Bakker wanted to portray something like this, I'm not sure. It is more what I want to see.

Personally I found the battle scenes in this book a bit tiring. I think a rather careful reader will remember all the details of the various generals, kings, warriors and such, but for me it's just an array of people I know nothing about. I used to think I was reasonably "at home" with the primary heroes in the iliad, but it has been a while since I read it.

I totally agree with you guys on his brilliant and profound reflections being a bit too frequent. In the end, I felt myself searching them out in the battle scenes while gliding over the rest. I think that these reflections are a bit too easily crafted when all is said and done. And folly is so regular in life that someone being able to criticize it can do it grandly and well.

But I still enjoy reading them!!!
Spoiler:
I also found Aurang - so shortly did he live - a bit of a dear. I mean, I assume the ravishing he gets into is pretty painful and brutal, but really he just wants to ravish and be ravished. He's sweet enough to give and take.


I have a question. I completely missed out on Sorweel dying. My guess is that he did, but clue me in!
Quote:
really hope there is a reason for each of the characters converging upon Golgotteroth, a role for each to play in the end. Akka, Mimara, Sorweel, Cnair, Moenghus, Serwe, etc. So many of them seem to have the same purpose, to either kill or accept Khellus. Surely they can't all have their character arcs resolved in this one issue, or at least not in the same way? Or maybe they can. I expect whatever they find at Golgotteroth to be pretty convincing, one way or another.

I think that the missed chances, flukes and failures of the cast is to hammer in the absurdity of the whole ordeal. Everything was ultimately trusted in Kellhus's hands, and at the end Bakker really seems to be convincing us that without Kellhus, none of this would be possible. From the organization of the armies, the formation of a new gnostic school, the "loyal" of his children...and he himself shown to be so absurdly powerful that stopping damnation rests with him.
Spoiler:
So when he turns and decides to damn the world himself, it's like the sudden injection of -1 into an equation, turning everything on its head. If the only person who can stop damnation decides to do it anyway, everyone else's fate is suddenly more or less the same. It doesn't matter if Mimara's pregancy turns out ok or not (I mean, it probably will be important in future books). It doesn't matter how bravely the men of the tusk fought. Suddenly, after books of all of it mattering, Kellhus - a person made the critical point in existence - has decided none of those human connections matter. Or maybe they do - enough to destroy them.

Of course, knowing Bakker, he'd probably tell us that unimaginable damnation is the absolute fate of every mote of dust in the universe.

I think you guys touched upon some of what I said in this post, but since I typed it up before I got to the section of the thread where you discussed this stuff, I don't have the heart to delete it.
Quote:

I've read some reviews on Amazon that are spot-on. Others have made some of the same complaints I've raised. The battle scenes would have been much more engaging if they weren't told from the omniscient perspective, but instead viewed through individual characters. I don't know why he couldn't just put a main character in each crucial point and let their POV inform us of the action.

I think Bakker was trying to depict forces as forces, not as individual soldiers. Sure, individuals have perspectives individual to themselves in a way, but he was trying to capture the madness/sanity of crowdes and the ebb and flow that - AFAIK - is characteristic of a certain era of warfare with massive formations of soldiers fighting together, and sorcerers operating as something like artillery.

I don't think I really find it interesting enough to read about, but there's the tragedy: we find ourselves at times compelled more by Kellhus than by the armies who serve him tooth and nail. We're drawn to the more interesting and singular monsters.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, IIRC, Sorweel got killed by the ancient non-man which then provoked him back to sanity in order to overthrow the influence of the Consult on the non-men...

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Hmmm, IIRC, Sorweel got killed by the ancient non-man which then provoked him back to sanity in order to overthrow the influence of the Consult on the non-men...

--A

But didn't Sorweel make it out with Serwa? And then Zsoronga made Sorweel give him a handjob or something? Did the nonmen leave Ishterebinth and come after them?

I feel like I'm showing off how little I followed this book right now.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holsety wrote:
But didn't Sorweel make it out with Serwa?


No, only her brother IIRC.

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