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WAS Kevin so wrong to enact the Ritual?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:51 pm    Post subject: WAS Kevin so wrong to enact the Ritual? Reply with quote

(The Ritual of Desecration).

Look at it this way:

Had Kevin fought to the bitter end, what would have been the result? Lord Foul would have won, regardless, and then destroyed the Land as he pleased. No more Giants, Bloodguard, Raynhyn, Andelain. No opportunity for later generations of inhabitants to exist, let alone for the New Lords to exist.

At least the Ritual of Desecration weakened Lord Foul enough so that the entire Land didn't come to a complete end.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, the classic argument surfaces once again....

Fist? Furlsy?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*grins*
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:12 am    Post subject: Re: WAS Kevin so wrong to enact the Ritual? Reply with quote

Ser_Visal wrote:
(The Ritual of Desecration).

Look at it this way:

Had Kevin fought to the bitter end, what would have been the result? Lord Foul would have won, regardless, and then destroyed the Land as he pleased. No more Giants, Bloodguard, Raynhyn, Andelain. No opportunity for later generations of inhabitants to exist, let alone for the New Lords to exist.

At least the Ritual of Desecration weakened Lord Foul enough so that the entire Land didn't come to a complete end.


Fouls goal was never the destruction of the Land.
It's the destruction of the Arch that he was/is after.
If Kevin hadn't enacted the Ritual I bet Foul would have backed off and found some way to prod Kevin into summoning the White Gold.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think both Fist and Furls should refresh us on what their respective positions are on this issue. Wink

One argument is that Kevin was utterly mad with despair in the end, so he wasn't thinking clearly, and therefore the Ritual wasn't a "pre-meditated" act, correct?

And the other argument says Kevin knew exactly what he was doing right to the end, that the Ritual was in fact part of his design, correct?

In hindsight, maybe Kevin wasn't so wrong after all to enact the Ritual, as Ser Visal says. But it sure doesn't make Kevin's "scorched earth" strategy any easier to accept. You're just gonna torch the Land, and hope for the best? He lived dangerously, that Kevin...
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:24 am    Post subject: The Bitter End Reply with quote

..Interesting that you go with the " bitter end". Presuming such, presumes your conclusions. Giving into ones despair dictates a presumed " end".

Not giving into ones despair,,presumes one is aware of ones " despair" no matter how camoflagued or cloaked. There is Donaldson's trap. What happens when you think you are doing the rite thing , only to be victim of deludeing oneself or by other.? The High Horse of the Ranyhin made a deal with the devil. Kevin made a deal with devil. Both gave into their despair,,with the naieve' belief that there was to be a " greater good'' outcome. Check and Mate by Big Foul.

..The concept of,,having faith in a unknown future that is entered with truth in your heart and mind ( being True to oneself),,is far better than accepting falsehood for a Known Future. We can try to create our futures but being true to ourselves is the most important tool needed to create a future we desire....did i just say that?.......MEL
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Furls Fire wrote:
*grins*


Oh, come on - you gotta give us more than that!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matrixman,
Quote:
In hindsight, maybe Kevin wasn't so wrong after all to enact the Ritual, as Ser Visal says. But it sure doesn't make Kevin's "scorched earth" strategy any easier to accept. You're just gonna torch the Land, and hope for the best? He lived dangerously, that Kevin...

Yet in the long run, it was successful was it not?

I believe High Lord Kevin's original intent was to destroy the Despiser, correct? (Maybe I'm wrong.)

But in the end, it saved the Land to fight another day.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matrixman wrote:
One argument is that Kevin was utterly mad with despair in the end, so he wasn't thinking clearly, and therefore the Ritual wasn't a "pre-meditated" act, correct?

And the other argument says Kevin knew exactly what he was doing right to the end, that the Ritual was in fact part of his design, correct?

Why must it be one or the other?

Kevin definitely 'planned' the Ritual, in that he protected what he could before he went ahead with it. But he was also certainly 'mad' with despair as well, because he was driven to destroy that which he loved.

I've always envisioned that Kevin at this time was "temporarilly obsessive". He was obsessed with destroying Foul in any way possible, and he was not capable of seeing any alternative that didn't involve trying to destroy Foul. In that he was mad, mad from grief. He was like a man going after a murderer -- retribution was all that mattered. He planned how to take the Despiser down, but he did so in a way that didn't count costs, including the cost to himself.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish to say that I believe unequivocably that Kevin was in the wrong, in invoking the Ritual of Desecration.

In Kevin's place, here is what the Old Lords should have done:

- Evacuated Revelstone, the other major cities of the Old Land, and the yet untouched North Plains, retreating into the Westron Mountains where a new life could be made, until enough power was raised to drive Foul's minions out of the Land.
- Retained the Bloodguard, and joined forces with the Haruchai, ensuring the minions of Foul could not penetrate the Westron Mountains.
- Sent messengers to inform the Giants to flee (or join them in the Westron Mountains.)
- Sent messengers to inform the Ramen and Ranyhyn to flee (or join them in the Westron Mountains.)
- Sent messengers to inform the people of the South Plains to flee (or join them in the Westron Mountains.)
- Sent messengers to the Waynhim, Wraiths of Andelain, and others, offering them sanctuary in the Westron Mountains.
- Taken EVERYTHING of value and beauty from Revelstone and the other cities of the Old Land, into the Westron Mountains, along with all their lore and accumulated knowledge.

Meanwhile, the Forestals would have protected Garrotting Deep, Grimmerdhore, Morrinmoss, and Giant Woods.
It is possible the Forestals themselves would have moved to protect Andelain (which was extensively forested.)

Let the cavewights, ur-viles, and demondim run amok for a while.
After Lord Foul found he had no use for them, he'd leave them to rot, and they'd turn on each other fast enough.

Yes, there would be serious and prolonged damage to the Land. But that would not be the fault of the Old Lords, since they could not win against Lord Foul and his minions.
And that damage could hardly be worse than what the Ritual of Desecration caused.

And just perhaps, beyond the high mountain realm of the Haruchai, lay other lands and peoples who could succor refugees, or lend military aid.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, this is like Covjr 'Defend the Land' thread, but in Kevins Time - i like it. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was Elena wrong for raising Kevin from the dead, or just a bit shortsighted for the consequences?

But I suppose Kevin did know the consequences. However, he didn't know Foul would survive. If Foul is destroyed, blemishing the land in a way that could eventually be healed....is not really such a bad thing. He was just shortsighted to Lord Foul's ploys, much like Elena.

Lord Mhoram is in the story (I think), among other things, as an example of Lord Kevin and Lord Elena, had they had the foresight to go with their passion and power.

Kevin wasn't so evil imo, just foolish in the face of a situation that would make most foolish.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tjol,
Quote:
Lord Mhoram is in the story (I think), among other things, as an example of Lord Kevin and Lord Elena, had they had the foresight to go with their passion and power.

Kevin wasn't so evil imo, just foolish in the face of a situation that would make most foolish.

I definitely agree with your description of Lord Mhoram's part in the story.

However, I'm not sure if I would call High Lord Kevin "foolish." Evil he certainly wasn't, I agree. But not so much foolish as he was..."blinded by despair." He let his emotions and instincts, which of course proved incorrect (Lord Foul lived to fight another day) get the better of him.

Frankly, I don't know what else he could have done.

The Despiser is an unstoppable enemy, it takes the Unbeliever to just get him out of commision; he cannot be killed.

And of course, High Lord Kevin had neither white gold nor an Unbeliever.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edeliath wrote:
In Kevin's place, here is what the Old Lords should have done:
Confused ok now I'm confused Confused What old lords are you talking about? Berek? Damelon? Confused It was Foul's murder of most of Kevin's council of "old" Lords that really drove him to utter despair.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:21 am    Post subject: There is an example Reply with quote

,,LM..That is exactly rite,,Foul is unkillable,,and,,yet you don't know what kevin should have done...I think Linden, in Runes so far, is setting an example.

Aknowledge the bastard's existance. Call him out and maintain a channel of communication . Become aware of his motivations. Just be aware of despair and deal with it accordingly. But, to give up, and sacrifice what you love,,No, that is not the ticket. Like a lot of personal problems , half the battle is stop denying that you have a problem,,Acknowlege the despair , deal with its manifestations.

This, " survive for another day" reminds me of Peter Sellers as Dr Strangelove discussing the mine gap with his president( Peter Sellers) and the Russian ambassador...Its absurdist in that it continues the flawed logic that got one in the mess in the first place. Root cause is continually denied and thus not dealt with.

Olde Kev had a difficult time realizing that he could be horn swaggled like any body else. The fact got the better of him...........MEL
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:
Furls Fire wrote:
*grins*


Oh, come on - you gotta give us more than that!


Okay, if I must...

My basic argument has always been this: If Kevin wasn't so deep in despair, he may have found a different way to use the power he used to enact the RoD, instead of turning it against the Land. Mhoram found such a way in TPTP, when he stopped Trell from destroying the Close and was able to use it to extract the Krill and defeat the ur-viles. BTW, Trell had also discoved the power of the RoD, and like Kevin, was so lost in his despair he sought to destroy that which he loved instead of watching it fall into the hands of the Despiser.

That's it in a nutshell...If people would like to read Fist's and mine debate on the this, go here: http://kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1449

That's where most of it took place. It did carrying over into PM and MSN chat tho...LOL!! And Fisty graciously brought up the question to the man himself at Elohimfest. It was a fun debate. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Furls,

I have to go with Fist here. As he pointed out in his own posts, High Lord Kevin was under far different circumstances than High Lord Mhoram. HLM was against a (mere Wink ) Giant-Raver, whereas HLK was up against Foul himself, who had infiltrated the Council itself.

...However, I must say this: As I said in the latest Bloodguard thread, I think we will see up-close the circumstances of the Kevin-Foul showdown some time in the Last Chronicles.

It will be quite interesting.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edelaith wrote:

...the Forestals would have protected Garrotting Deep, Grimmerdhore, Morrinmoss, and Giant Woods.
It is possible the Forestals themselves would have moved to protect Andelain (which was extensively forested.)

Let the cavewights, ur-viles, and demondim run amok for a while.
After Lord Foul found he had no use for them, he'd leave them to rot, and they'd turn on each other fast enough.

Yes, there would be serious and prolonged damage to the Land. But that would not be the fault of the Old Lords, since they could not win against Lord Foul and his minions.


This leads me to wonder what the state of relations was between the Old Lords and the Forestals. Was it a big chill between the two powers or could there have been some kind of detente? If they could have worked together, the combined might of the Old Lords and the Forestals would have been very great. Add the Bloodguard, and it's hard to imagine how any army of ur-viles and Cavewights could defeat such an alliance.

But who knows? Maybe the Old Lords did try to talk to the Forestals at some point, but were rebuffed. I can imagine that Caerroil Wildwood back then would have been just as hostile to men as he was in TIW, and the only way to win his aid would be if the Old Lords were willing to pay the kind of price that Hile Troy did, centuries later.

Anyway, Kevin was probably too self-absorbed in his despair to see any hope in such alliances. SRD (in his Elohimfest interview) described Kevin as a megalomaniac who suffered from a God complex. If he couldn't save the Land, well then, nobody else could, and he was going to take his Land with him. (That's my interpretation.)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again.

I've been thinking about this one & I've decided that one of the best things about this forum is that everyone is so different from one another that we are able to throw ideas out which alone we might never have considered. Then it merely becomes a problem of dealing with our own pride in accepting someone else's brilliant idea instead of the one we spent time developing.

Well, here's my brilliant idea. Consider that SRD is reflecting his life into these books as much as any other writer would do. When he was young, they had these terrifying emergency drills and an eerie siren would announce it. For those who live in tornado country, it sounds a lot like that, except it occillates alot so it sounds like Wiieeaaaarrrrrwweeeiiiaaarrrrweeiiiiaaarrr.... instead of the constant tone of the tornado siren. The reason is because of how the siren sounds when it turns off & that red-shift base kicks in. It travels farther & sounds louder.

Anyway, that was the nuclear bomb siren. People his age would then get under a table or something & put their head between their legs & their hands over their necks. Now, even a child knows that this is the position for 'kiss your ass goodbye'. Anyway, I'm sure that was quite scary to SRD. Nowadays, we hardly give it any thought at all by comparison.

So maybe this ritual of desecration is much like an atomic bomb; specifically the bombing of Japan. It is the most terrible power we possess and we used it & we felt that we had to use it.

Now, I hear a lot about Kevin's despair and it is an interesting viewpoint. However, he knew he was going to do this. He was planning on doing it. He told the bloodguard to go away and made other preperations.

Perhaps a lot of the reason for doing it was a sort of revenge. Maybe that's part of the reason that the United States used the bomb on Japan. They decimated our fleet in Pearl Harbor, so we leveled two of their cities with a bluffed threat to continue doing it until Japan was a smoking cinder. We only had 2 bombs. They didn't know that.

So maybe just the Judas kiss slap in the face of having a friend in the council that turns out to be the devil himself is sort of like this feeling of vengence required and Kevin acts to save lives or the Land before whatever terrible plan Lord Foul has can be arranged and he stops him. But there's a lot of debate about the USA's "need" to use the big bomb. Maybe it wasn't really necessary. Maybe we could have been more humane and taken an Iraq War stance & spend billions of dollars & many years to slowly change Japan. Then again, maybe we just wanted to blow up some Jappers. Men are quite violent creatures really. Oh we love things and people and animals. But we really like seeing big explosions or someone getting kicked right in the face at the movies. Maybe Kevin was just red-faced angry and decided to use the bomb on Japan for having Lord Foul betray him like Judas and whatever unknown threat of Pearl Harbor he was planning or had already carried out.

I think that SRD paints Kevin & Berek as vastly more intelligent than later Lords. The first thing he said to Elena when she woke him up from the dead was "FOOL!". But I'm positive that they made quick decisions and went with their first guess intuition when it came to power too. It's just that their first guess intuition was more understood in its ramifications. So I'm quite sure that Kevin knew what he was doing and that he did the right thing. Maybe in his own way, he was the sacrificial Christ of his age.

Anyway, food for thought.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin's Ritual is a combination of two possible responses to The Void; on the one hand his response was despair, giving up, destroying that which he loved in order to destroy that which he hated--a form of suicide. But it was also a form of fighting, believing that he could eradicate Despite with a violent enough attack. Both of these are destructive and futile responses.

I think there are 4 possible responses to the Void, each of which are either a form of acceptance or denial.

Two kinds of acceptence: 1) giving in, and 2) suicide. Suicide at least acknowledges the reality of the Unattractive Truth, as I call it, the reality that one cannot defeat or eradicate it, and instead seeks to eliminate oneself. Giving in, on the other hand, is kind of like Foamfollower's laughter--laughter IN SPITE of the Void. It is not a denial of it, but instead a refusal to let the Void beat down one's "spirit," or "heart."

Two kinds of denial: 1) fighting and 2) denial (for lack of a better word). Fighting is what Hile Troy did, trying to beat Despite with pure physical might. This is a form of denial because Despite cannot be defeated, the Void is an existential feature of reality that's not going away. What I mean by 2) is like the Oath of Peace, thinking that you can just ignore things such as your own inner Despite, your own inner Void--that you can supress these "ugly" parts of yourself.

All four of these responses are paradoxical and absurd. It is absurd to use your freedom to end your freedom (suicide). It is absurd to acknowledge the Void and yet retain hope and laughter. It is absurd to fight something that can't be beaten. And it is absurd to try to supress and ingnore real parts of the world.

However, I think in the end, the most noble response is an unflenching acknowledgement of the Void, the absurd choice to laugh in the face of it; to give in to its reality, but to refuse to let this reality turn you into what you hate. You may not be able to eradicate Despite, but you can choose how you react to it. In the end, it is all of us helping each other, sacrificing ourselves for each other, that translates the absurdity of our existence into something bearable . . . possibly something even more. Possibly even transcends the absurdity?

So yeah, Kevin was wrong.
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