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Hile Troy - What a Berk!!!
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jwaneeta
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Covenant Jr said unto me:

Quote:
TOPIC BUMP for that deranged Troy-lover jwaneeta.


Many thanks! At long last, my deranged love shall be heard!

First, I shall disclaim: I've read with interest all the admirable posts treating of Troy's military strategy, but they're outside my field, and I can't argue for Troy on that ground. I think it's evident Troy made blunders; I maintain that they were understandable, forgiveable, even meritorious blunders, and leave it at that.

But as to berkhood: NOT, and here's why.

A berk is a static being. A berk is frozen forever in berkdom, like an insect in amber, but Hile Troy never stopped evolving. He starts out as an uncertain, blind stranger in the Land, and boom, suddenly he's Warmark. Almost as suddenly, he's a tree stump. When next we see him, he's a collection of helpful green gleams. By the time of the Second Chronicles, he has assumed a human appearance again, but is unquestionably a being of awesome and uncanny power. And he passes from the story as a tree stump once more, immolated in a last act of heroic self-donation.

You may say: Hold! Okay, that's a lot of changes, but most of what you cite was Caer-Caveral being cool, and nobody is debating the coolness of Caer-Caveral. But I submit that Hile Troy and Caer-Caveral are the same being. Many of Hile Troy's defining traits lived on in Caer-Caveral. Troy's dogged subbornness kept him at his post in Andelain long after his master Caerroil Wildwood handed in his lunch pail and passed away. Troy's human heart remained vulnerable to Andelain's plight, and he loved it with a poignant, mortal love. And it was Troy, in the end, who appealed to Thomas Covenant, man to man, when a Forestal's power would have been helpless to compell him.

Ultimately, Troy's story is a tale of spiritual evolution: sad and lovely with all the poignance of the soul's journey. Yes, Hile Troy started off as a proud man with too much faith in his own smarts. But that's the glory of it. He was humbled by adversity, and it made him stronger. He fell and he rose. He learned, and he persevered. He stood alone on the burning deck, when all about him fled -- and that is not berkiness, I say, but the very definition of Tragic Woobiehood.

Bold, impulsive, generous, brave and resourceful, Hile Troy could easily have been victorious as Warmark if the cards of Despite had not been stacked so overwhelmingly against him. I note that when people slag off Hile Troy they rarely mention how the Lords kept the whole summoning story under wraps, or how he reacted when he discovered the ugly truth. "As far as you know, I'm just a substitute." Troy grasped the implications of Atarian's tainted summoning, but at that point the momentum of the war was irreversible and he very creditably carried on as he had begun, for to do otherwise would have not only been craven but nonsensical.

And so the inexorable tide of tragedy swept him forward, as it swept all the characters forward, and ultimately Troy paid the noble price of his human fallibility on Gallow's Howe. Whatever his sins of omission, arrogance or faulty planning, he fully expiated them with his desperate offer to Caerroil Wildwood: he fell, but he had fought for his adopted Land with all the flawed tools at his disposal, and his faithfulness bore fruit for millennia to follow.

A berk? Oh, say not so. Say, rather: a woobie for the ages, and a hero of shining parts.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there really such a thing as a berk?
I always thought that this thread was a typo.

(Troy certainly was a jerk though-I liked him as Caer-Caveral)
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drew asked:

Quote:
Is there really such a thing as a berk?


Some definitions of "berk" on the Web:

a fool; disliked person.
www.artistwd.com/joyzine/australia/strine/b-3.php

a stupid person who is easy to take advantage of
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Quote:
(Troy certainly was a jerk though-I liked him as Caer-Caveral)


My impassioned eloquence failed to move you, I see. This calls for more persuasive rhetoric. Cool
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aahhhh! jwaneeta's bringing out the big guns! Even more persuasive rhetoric! Run for the hills!

(Preferably not the Andelainian Hills, as that's where Troy--er, Caer-Caveral is waiting to jump out at us. Screwy)

But seriously, jwaneeta, that was a terrific post. Very eloquent indeed. Cool
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend wrote:
The initial plan was something similar but with a managable timescale and distance.

You're quite right. I stand corrected.

Matrixman wrote:
Preferably not the Andelainian Hills, as that's where Troy--er, Caer-Caveral is waiting to jump out at us. Screwy

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jwaneeta Head Banger
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

standing ovation for jwaneeta's post. and much praise to Hile Troy, better than Thomas any day of the week.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sgtnull wrote:
better than Thomas any day of the week.

Now you'll know how it feels to be Covenant. Outcast unclean! Cussing
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lucimay said, cryptically:


Quote:
Head Banger


Does that mean, "I concur," or "your post is so lame demons should eat it"?

Embarassed
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sgt null said:

Quote:
standing ovation for jwaneeta's post. and much praise to Hile Troy, better than Thomas any day of the week.


Oh, thank you, sob. Very Happy I thought I was alone in the world.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I didn't like about Troy, is that he treated Cov like...well like a Leper.

It was exactly was TC was used to, but it was rude.

I did like, though, when Cov was telling Troy he didn't know what it was like to be a Leper, and Troy responded that it can't be any worse than being born "..Without any Eyes!!"
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jwaneeta wrote:
Lucimay said, cryptically:


Quote:
Head Banger


Does that mean, "I concur," or "your post is so lame demons should eat it"?

Embarassed

It means your post rocks, like the yellow bloke who's banging his head to some rock.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Covenant Jr broadened my understanding, so:

Quote:
It means your post rocks, like the yellow bloke who's banging his head to some rock.


Thanks for the tip. The Higher Emoticons are a discipline I've yet to master. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drew said:

Quote:
What I didn't like about Troy, is that he treated Cov like...well like a Leper.

It was exactly was TC was used to, but it was rude.


In what way?

Quote:
I did like, though, when Cov was telling Troy he didn't know what it was like to be a Leper, and Troy responded that it can't be any worse than being born "..Without any Eyes!!"


See, that's what won my heart: he treated Covenant like an equal in adversity, if anything. Like a peer. They'd both been under the harrow.
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hile Troy is a Berk.

I realize that for the purposes of the story and considering the size of Fleshharrowers army and the limitations in manpower and technology of the Lord's forces there was no way he could win.

However, I am re-reading TIW right now and there are some obvious things he could of done to inact his great "plan". They mention that they have signal fires set up across the center plains. Did he mention to the Manethralls scouting the spoiled plains that they didn't have to run all the way to Revelstone. They could simply run to the nearest Stonedown or Woodhelvin and get the signal fires burining. A simple one, two or three flames could signal whether the army was coming from the North, South or Center.

After Hile Troy gets the news from Manethrall Rue that Foul's forces are coming he suddenly has the inspiration to build rafts and move a portion of his forces by water. Maybe this idea could have occurred to him sometime before during the previous five years. If he had a whole bunch of rafts ready to go both in the lake by Furl Falls and somewhere along the Mithil or Black rivers he could have saved a lot of marching time.

He still would have been beaten miserably but at least he wouldn't have to put his own soldiers through a horrible death march.
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point about the rafts...that's one I'd not considered. I thought a way of avoiding the death march could have been quartering his army away from Revelstone, and closer to his intended destination, while he awaited news of the march, (chich should indeed have been sent more efficiently.

If you're interested, there's an excellent thread a few down called "Defend The Land." We're always happy to have more input in it. Very Happy

However, I really do think that given the scale of things, his mistakes were fairly minor, despite the problems they caused needlessly.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's funny, but when I was a teenager and first read the Chronicles I thought Hile Troy was pretty cool.

When I got older and had studied some history I did re-read the books and one of the first things I wondered is why Troy didn't think of pike formations. You think of Alexander, Robert the Bruce, the Swiss, and you notice that they defeated seemingly more powerful armies using such infantry units. I wondered why Troy didn't plan things so that archers along with pikes could use aggressive defense against Foul's forces.

I also thought of the Romans. It's been said that without lots of horses and wagons the supply problem is a big issue. The Romans however didn't really use a lot of horses. They used oxen a lot though, and the Stonedowners raise cattle. They also had corps of engineers, pioneers, supply people, etc. It doesn't seem to be the case with the Warward. Even if you leave out the Roman ideas there's the Aztecs--they had no large animals except for Llamas yet they seemed to manage. There's no mention of any non-warriors except for musicians, Hirebrands, Gravelingases and so on. Why doesn't Troy have a supply corps? If he had he might have been able to truly make a stand at Doriendor Corishev. The only excuse for the lack of this I can think of is a low population, a lack of large towns or settlements apart from Revelstone and Revelwood.

It's been asked why he didn't have a better scout corps. Why he didn't say create a smaller flying column to range along the possible progress of Foul's army, why he didn't have more sentry posts or some kind of alarm system in place. I realize he couldn't think of everything but still, why keep the whole Warward at Revelstone? Troy must have known enough military history to think of how beneficial having a lot of scouts out there would be.

As far as his cavalry goes, I did wonder when I read it a second time why he hadn't had the mounted warriors trained to fight with bows on horseback or something. Maybe they did but it seemed like they were just charging around with swords all the time.

The one thing I don't think he can much be blamed for is the failure of the Korik/Shetra/Hyrim mission to Seareach. He sent in a scout force earlier which didn't come back, and then sent a more powerful one later on. Everyone placed a lot of hope in the idea of the Giants as allies. Nevertheless I had thought on my second reading that it was a foolish mission--with the war about to start Hyrim and Shetra would have been invaluable with the Warward. (although really it's also one of the most gripping and interesting parts of the book)

However all this is speculation--while fun I think the main point about Troy is that he's blind. He is almost the symbol of the blindness of the good guys in TIW; Elena, Troy, the Council, all act blindly in this book. The sole purpose of Flesharrower's army is not, I believe, to genuinely conquer the land but rather to waste the resources of the people. I believe that Foul's real plan of conquest lies with Satansfist, not with Flesharrower.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hile Troy is a very easy target if you ask me. Not least cos the poor fella is as blind as a bat. Razz
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I remember Troys Grueling Marches and pretty much agree on all points. Troy-for being in the most "intelligent" branch of the service sure did forget all of his natural ability with field plans...you dont wait for an army to march and head them off at the pass 300 leagues away...you would already have had at least two more strongholds or small cities dedicated to the warwards and lords sent to protect that region, the need for ramen or runners would be a chain of runner stations so that messages would get there at full running speed...you would be telling the Loresraat that "I NEED ANYONE who can summon Power for defense in battle, even if they are under the standards of being a Lord. there would have been a whole battalion of Sur-Lords who could wield fire but possibly didnt get the healing aspects of the Earthpower, or visa versa- he/she just wasnt getting that "Word of Warning" incantation quite right. but im sure they would have had alot of use other than dying in Revelwood when they got surrounded....

And the idea of Carts.....they were far too advanced to have simply overlooked the Wheel..but they were not technological to the point of Making Steel Knives even(or did they have steel swords?)..they all had stone knives from what i remember...Even Hile Troy had an Ebony Sword. What did the Infantry fight with? did they have steel swords?...how many cavewights is that going to hurt before it splinters?? it would go something like this...stab slash...SNAAAP!! (New sword over here please!!!!)
....but still... a cart would have been great if for nothing else than carrying all of the infantries packs. and if a boat could be driven with earthpower..imagine if they had put a Gildenlode Cart on wheels and had Mhoram riding that thing like a chariot with no horses!! Very Happy

Overall Troys Miserable failure had to take place or he would'nt have been Caer Caveral. they would never have thought of entering Garroting deep unless they had their backs to the wall (literally)

my thoughts come down to this..I would never change one word of this story but if I had to make edits.. Troy whould have used Carts and Mithil stonedown or its surrounding area as a secondary staging area when the Army attacked it could have Fought until they needed Dooms retreat.. No long march, much stronger warriors mind and body, and they would already be near dooms retreat.
but then without running into Garroting Deep the Giant Ravers Army would NOT have been defeated and it would have rolled north and done what Satansfists Army had done 7 years sooner.

you just cant win.

Carrier Hawks would have been nice too... get a message there faster than foot or horse.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

matrixman wrote:
Aahhhh! jwaneeta's bringing out the big guns! Even more persuasive rhetoric! Run for the hills!

(Preferably not the Andelainian Hills, as that's where Troy--er, Caer-Caveral is waiting to jump out at us. Screwy)

But seriously, jwaneeta, that was a terrific post. Very eloquent indeed. Cool


err as per WGW ... Caer-Caveral is now just a burnt out tree stump with a great big knife sticking out of it!! Trout
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