Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Unworthy of the Angel
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> General SRD Discussion and Other Works
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
kastenessen
Giantfriend

Male
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Posts: 304

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

Location: Stockholm, Sweden
158 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arabisha wrote:


It sounds like from your quotes of the stories and the rest of your post that it is the frustration caused in the dreamer by denying his telling of them that leads to his bad treatment of others. Er I mean that the dream was meant to be told and shared and that by insisting that his telling was worthless or less than perfect (as it could not be) it caused an essential hurt to him which led to his destruction.


The lack of understanding between Ahkmet and the wise men definitely and ultimately leads to his destruction, that I believe too. The thing is, any normal person would accept someones analysis of a dream as an...analysis, and leave it at that. But he persists and don't try to make himself understood. He just goes on with his mantra, "You don't understand! It was all in the dream! (With variations)

If this "misunderstanding" is the cause of his mistreatment of women. This might be so, (it is, but only in an elliptical way...again what did he expect for an answer... to me, there is no answer) but my point is which I can hardly explain which makes the story so interesting is what is said and why It has such an effect on Ahkmet.

And yes, irrational is probably wrong word. I'm searching for the right word...

kast
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
arabisha
Guest









0 White Gold Dollars

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahkmet's response is indeed irrational. There was no right answer that the hearers could give him. He tells the narrarator of the story in deep distress that he is only himself. Perhaps it is this which is truly the source of his distress. In the face of the power and beauty of his dreams he sees himself as low. And instead of taking some solace or joy in the retelling of his dreams he broods upon his own "lacking" in comparison.

SRD tells us in his foreward that he was going through a divorce during this writing. I wonder about that revelation since it is difficult to find much about him personally. I assume he prefers it this way, not that I blame him. Writing his characters as he does must make him feel downright naked at times. So why are we told? The only thing I can really think of is that the story's main point deals with how people relate.
Back to top
arabisha
Guest









0 White Gold Dollars

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read it again more closely. Maybe it just comes down to the fact that the wonder of the dreams for him was that he had no control. The fact that everyone placates him only aggravates him more because it shows how much control in life he actually has. I still don't see why it made him so mean though. The way it came across the second time I almost think he expected his victims to thank him for showing them the "beauty" of having no control. As though he couldn't see the difference in pain and pleasure, or blissful surrender and torture.
I caught a lot of overtones about sincerity vs. show. Not sure what to make of it though. Anyhow, I enjoy a story that makes me think so hard. Smile
Back to top
danlo
Lord of Neverness


Joined: 06 Mar 2002
Posts: 20840

Thanks: 43
Thanked 55 Times in 55 Posts

Location: Albuquerque NM
2529 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 2005 Watcher of the Year1 Sandgorgon1 Skyweir


PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

King Solomon's personal history comes to mind, 4 some odd reason..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Phoogle Map
arabisha
Guest









0 White Gold Dollars

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why? Because he had to learn through experience that lasting joy could not be obtained through excess?
Back to top
arabisha
Guest









0 White Gold Dollars

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aw c'mon Danlo and help me out here : )

because he was a king's son before he was king?
because in the end even God given wisdom wasn't enough to keep him out of trouble during his grand time on our great planet?
because
because
because
?

durnit you can't stop and leave those ellipses teasing me Razz

Kast, I'm sorry I missed what you were saying before (heh I'm not quick but am persistent!). You think that the dialogue intentionally leaves something out? I just took the way the conversation went to be Ahkmet's inability to express himself. I will look again.
Back to top
kastenessen
Giantfriend

Male
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Posts: 304

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

Location: Stockholm, Sweden
158 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arabisha wrote:
You think that the dialogue intentionally leaves something out? I just took the way the conversation went to be Ahkmet's inability to express himself. I will look again.


Well, on behalf of SRD it definitely leaves something out. He never writes anything without purpose. And with Ahkmet responding the way he does it leaves a lot to interpretation. Earlier on in this thread
Joy wrote:
Quote:
...a description of a creative mind at work...


I'm just adlibbing now, Could it be that this story is self-reflective in the sence that it mirrors SRD's creative writing process besides beeing the interesting story it is by itself. In it we have many of his themes and worlds and maybe "fantasies". First there is of course the dreams themselves. I mean, what could the first dream be but a description of something in the Land.

Quote:
..."The place was a low valley," he said, showing the angle of the slopes with his hands, "it's sides covered by rich greensward on which the early dew glistened, as bright in the sunshine as a sweep of stars. Down the vale-bottom ran a steram of water so clean and crystal that it appeared as liquid light, dancing and swirling over it's black rocks and white sand. Above the greensward stood fruit trees, apple and peach and cherry, all in blossom, with their flowers like music in the sun, and their trunks wrapped in sweet shade. The air was luminous and utterly deep, transformed from the unfathomable purple of night by the warmth of the sun.
The peace of the place was complete," murmured young Akhmet,"and I would have been content with it as it was, happy to gaze upon it while the dream remained in my mind. But it was not done. For when I gazed upon the running trance of the stream, I saw that the dance of the light was full of the dance of small fish, and as my eyes fell upon the fish I saw that while they danced they became flowers, flowers more lovely than lilies, brighter than japonica, and the flowers floated in profusion away along the water.
Then I gazed from these blooms to the flowers of the trees, and they too, changed. Upon the trees, the flowers appeared to be music, but in moments they became birds, and the birds were music indeed, their flights like arcs of melody, their bodies formed to the shape their song. And the shade among the treetrunks also changed. From the the sweet dark emerged rare beasts, lions and jacols, nilgai deer with fawns among them, oryx fabled mandrill. And the peace of the beasts, too, was complete, so that they brought no fear with them. Instead they gleamed as the greensward and the stream gleamed, and when the lions shook their manes they scattered dropltes of watwer which became chrysoprase and diamonds among the grass. The fawns of the nilgai wore a sheen of finest silver, and from the mouths of the mandrill let fall rubies of enough purity to ransom a world.
I remember it all...


No not even in the chrons there is something like this but perhaps the chapters that deals with the Elohim ...This is some dream isn't it, ...what I'm getting at is...that dreams comes like a gift from God and end up in stories...I believe you were into that idea weren't you arabisha?

There are four dreams described in the story. The last one is of a very sexual character. And in this story, the theme with sexual abuse is of great importance, and one way or another it always show up in his works. The Gap, MN and TCTC and The Man Who...

Maybe a clue is in the quote from Isak Dinesen and Out of Africa the first page.


Quote:
I t is not the freedom of the dictator, who enforces his own will on the world, but the freedom of the artist, who has no will, who is free of will. The pleasure of the true dreamer does not lie in the substance of the deam, but in this; there things happen without any interference from his side, and altogether outside his control.
(The dreamer is) the priviliged person to whom everything is taken. The Kings of Tarshish shall bring gifts.


...a creative mind at work...there are many ways to attack and analyse this story. I actually have difficulties understanding this last quote from Isak Dinesen(Karen Blixen by the way)...

As Akhmet says to the wise men after a telling:
Quote:
You rave!


I'll be back...kast
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
arabisha
Guest









0 White Gold Dollars

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*sigh*
Maybe I should let it go for a bit. I feel like I'm bashing my head against a wall here. Look:

this from the king after hearing the first dream

[/quote]And he was entranced by the Prince's dream, full as it was with things which he had himself experienced, but could not remember. The truth was that the Caliph was not an especially imaginative ruler. Common sense and common sympathy were his province. For new ideas, unexpected solutions, unforseen possibilities, he relied upon his advisers. Therefore he listened to young Akhmet's recitation as if in telling his dream the Prince accomplished something wonderous. And he cozied the sadness which followed the telling as if Akhmet had indeed suffered a loss.

Alright the tone or whatever its called of this paragraph seems to cast doubt. as if...as if...indeed...the narrator implies that the telling was not indeed wondrous and that Akhmet had suffered no loss. Explain how the king is entranced at the hearing because he recognizes it but can't remember? Although the dream reads like pure beauty this section seems to say that it is trouble. So we are back again to these possibilities: a) the dreams themselves are bad, and/or b) Akhmet is bad, and/or c)his telling is either wrong practically or morally and/or d)his audience is wrong/ill equipped whatever...
Back to top
kastenessen
Giantfriend

Male
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Posts: 304

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

Location: Stockholm, Sweden
158 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arabisha wrote:
*sigh*
Maybe I should let it go for a bit. I feel like I'm bashing my head against a wall here.


Sorry if I bore you with my ravings on The Kings.... Let's call it a day for a while , yes. I'm bashing my head as well...just this, I re-read your posts carefully once more...
Quote:
Why? Because he had to learn through experience that lasting joy could not be obtained through excess.

and
Quote:
...the tyranny of others dreams around them and on themselves...their frustration of not being able to be understood also not understand yourself.

and
Quote:
...to capture something that he couldn't. It led to obsession.


All of this is true, and the more you delve into this story, more and more questions arises...It's complex and maybe it shouldn't be untangled...

kast
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
arabisha
Guest









0 White Gold Dollars

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kast! Your posts in no way bore me!! I would be honored to read your 4 pages of notes even (if you wanted to share them.) My sighing just stems from my inability to "get" something I want to understand. The way my mind works, ideas have to sit and idle and twist and dance and do whatever else they wanna do in there til they feel like knocking on the door of my reason and saying "HELLO? HELLO IN THERE!"

Heh I should be used to it by now. Anyhow, please don't mind the babble. I enjoy your posts! Smile
Back to top
kastenessen
Giantfriend

Male
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Posts: 304

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

Location: Stockholm, Sweden
158 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey! Everything's cool! I just got the same feeling you got. A lot of stuff bout The Kings...gathering in the head, just can't make anything sensible out of it.

You know my notes, handwritten as they are, I should probably write them down carefully in the comp and see what happens...there are so many loose ends, don't really know what to do with them...we'll see....

kast
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
arabisha
Guest









0 White Gold Dollars

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok kast, I'll dispense with the babble.

truth is the story interests me for personal reasons. yeah, i've had dreams like those and what's more, I wasn't asleep. (I feel like the world's biggest freak here heh) but they were so beautiful. and i didn't go around kicking my dog afterwards...so now you see why I wanna know so bad why ahkmet turned out evil. *blushes bright red*
Back to top
arabisha
Guest









0 White Gold Dollars

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gah forgive me for weirding out on ya...have to be reminded sometimes there's things I got no answer for.
Back to top
kastenessen
Giantfriend

Male
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Posts: 304

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

Location: Stockholm, Sweden
158 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arabisha wrote:
gah forgive me for weirding out on ya...have to be reminded sometimes there's things I got no answer for.


Nah, there's nothing to forgive, it's cool(truly)...,...and slowly, inch by inch we're scratching our way back in again, to the story that is. And I totally agree, sometimes there are no answers...
arabisha wrote
Quote:
...yeah, I've had dreams like those and what's more, I wasn't asleep...so now you know why I wanna know so bad why ahkmet turned out evil...


I don't actually know if it is the dreams that makes Ahkmet turn evil. Ok, they might trigger him towards evil, but I believe he had it in him before the dreams assailed him. I also believe that the question of when someone is becoming evil is very difficult to answer and there is a lot of different reasons behind...(So I started reading the first two pages two find something that would, you know validate my first sentence in this section, but somehow it eluded me. Arrgh! It slips through my fingers...no, my mind...)

Sounds great having dreams like that(referring to your quote here), but did they , so to speak, take over...that the day dissappeared, and you were in the dream or was it kind of a parallell situation, you know the best of both worlds...I have had dreams myself, dreams that I have known to be important and that have guided me through some points in my life. I see them as my subconscious speaking to me...LOUD... But I was asleep and remembered them. I even have them written down somewhere...

kasten
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
arabisha
Guest









0 White Gold Dollars

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe Ahkmet's biggest problem was that he was never satisfied. Who can tell but there may have been even better dreams to come if he had not botched things by trying to manipulate himself into deserving or demanding more (which made him most unpleasant to be around.)
Personally gotta admit while not abusive I can get absentminded when an idea latches hold and sings to me. Others probably don't appreciate it. So ok if a lesson from young Akhmet is to be learned its probably gratefulness, humility, and restraint. *prays for patience* lol
Back to top
kastenessen
Giantfriend

Male
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Posts: 304

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

Location: Stockholm, Sweden
158 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or maybe he was just plain stupid or too occupied with himself to function within even the relatively small society he lived in...too intolerant to accept anybody but himself...Isn't it a classic theme: a spoiled son of a benevolent king, an evil son of a good king or something...

kasten
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
kastenessen
Giantfriend

Male
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Posts: 304

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

Location: Stockholm, Sweden
158 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arabisha wrote
Quote:
Maybe Ahkmet's problem was that he was never satisfied.


Yes, it was probably so. This is a personal trait. Somthing which is difficult to alter. And he never did understand himself. This becomes a dangerous combination.

arabisha wrote:
Quote:
So ok if a lesson from young Ahkmet is to be learned it's probably gratefulness, humility and restraint.


I totally agree...

kasten
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
variol son
Seer and Oracle


Joined: 05 Apr 2002
Posts: 5772

Thanks: 8
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts

Location: New Zealand
1341 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love the way that the "angel" cannot give up on Reese, no matter how much he dislikes him. He cannot surrender him, despite the fact that Reese's sister will die, because of who he, the protagonist, is.

Sum sui generis
Vs
_________________
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.

In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.

He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
Thanked by: Cord Hurn
Linna Heartbooger
keeper of many stories

FemaleRanyhyn
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 3632

Thanks: 56
Thanked 63 Times in 63 Posts


6281 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Mithil Stonedown1 Caamora1 Lord Mhoram's Victory


PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked the concept of the angel needing "permission" to be involved.

I really liked the fact that the angel allowed himself to get wrapped up in caring so much about Kristen's wounds... caused him to judge Reese... and almost fail at what he was supposed to do. Kinda like stuff that happens with real people. =)

Favorite quote from the book? Mine is probably:

Quote:
She scanned the table, hunting for excuses. "You haven't finished your coffee."

I nearly laughed out loud. I wasn't here for her-- and yet she did such wonderful things for me! Suddenly, I decided that it was all worth the cost. Smiling broadly, I said, "I didn't say I needed coffee. I said you needed to buy it for me."

_________________
"We human beings do real harm. History could make a stone weep." -Gilead, by Marilynne Robinson

deer of the dawn's anti-recommendation of "Gilead"
My anti-recommendation of the same. (hers is shorter!)
Both are on the Watch's excellent "Anti-Recommendations of your Favorite Books" thread.

'"He will wipe the tears from all faces." It takes nothing from the loveliness of the verse to say that is exactly what will be required.' -Gilead, by Marilynne Robinson
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thanked by: Cord Hurn
Linna Heartbooger
keeper of many stories

FemaleRanyhyn
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 3632

Thanks: 56
Thanked 63 Times in 63 Posts


6281 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Mithil Stonedown1 Caamora1 Lord Mhoram's Victory


PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just re-read "Unworthy of the Angel" a couple weeks ago.

I was again completely blown away by how amazing SRD's insights are.

It's like a reference book on picking up on clues about what people aren't saying.. and what to do about it; and, more importantly, what not to do.

There were other things I found fascinating..
I noticed but don't completely get the theme (motif?) of the sun's heat and pressure...
...connected to the oppression of modern, urban life.

But basically... I'm so thankful that little work of fiction exists.
Hearts
_________________
"We human beings do real harm. History could make a stone weep." -Gilead, by Marilynne Robinson

deer of the dawn's anti-recommendation of "Gilead"
My anti-recommendation of the same. (hers is shorter!)
Both are on the Watch's excellent "Anti-Recommendations of your Favorite Books" thread.

'"He will wipe the tears from all faces." It takes nothing from the loveliness of the verse to say that is exactly what will be required.' -Gilead, by Marilynne Robinson
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thanked by: Cord Hurn
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> General SRD Discussion and Other Works All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch