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The Official Gilden-Fire thread.
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Barnetto
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, just rereading TIW for the first time in 25 years.... and have read it inserting Gilden Fire before Runnik's report. Frankly, I think the POV argument fails (for me). I know that SRD argues that writing a large portion of the book from Troy's POV doesn't invalidate the ambiguity of the Land's reality, but for me it does. It is either all in Covenant's head or it isn't. I don't see how Covenant can be dreaming it from Troy's POV (or even if he can why that would be so different from Mhoram's / anyone else from the Land's viewpoint). In any event, the important point is that Covenant doesn't know whether it is in his head or not - I don't see how it is that important that the reader doesn't know for sure.

Mental editing aside (the conflict between the Gilden Fire chapter and Runnik's report), I'm surprised that SRD didn't find the space to include some of the material in this chapter - I agree with others that it is important in fleshing out the Bloodguard (in a way that the Last Chronicles do more thoroughly) - not sure whether it adds an awful lot to Hyrim/Shetra, will reserve judgment til I finish TIW.

Anyway, nothing new here I'm sure but I'm just enjoying posting on this site! And I agree with some others who suggest that the real issue here was the perceived (unfortunate) limit on the length of the books and that the POV issue was raised post hoc to justify cuts made for length reasons. I just think it is a bit of a shame that this (lame Shocked) excuse has been held onto for so long...

If SRD wanted consistency on the Covenant viewpoint and retain the ambiguity from the reader's perspective he would have needed to continue to write it all from Covenant's perspective. But I can see that would have become increasingly restrictive, artificial and convoluted... I think he had to break the constraint and write from other perspectives and I don't think that actually detracts from the central theme (at least of LFB and TIW) that Covenant doesn't know if the Land is real or a dream.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS I also think that Gilden Fire goes someway to alleviating that feeling you get when reading LFB and TIW that the Land is oddly under-occupied. At least as they ride east they ride through occupied lands.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

re-reading the chrons and into TIW, had to pull my autographed by SRD copy of GF out of the library (yeah, I'm braggin'!!).
I guess I get the POV issue, although, by this time having Troy in the mix kinda lessened the impact of a different POV for me.
After all, I transport myself to the Land everytime I start reading, so it's ALL real to me!
I really enjoy the history of the Haruchai the most out of GF - the mission description is not so vital, as it gets described later anyway.

And Guns - you could be right about the winter hell hole concept Twisted Evil I've been complaining about winter for almost 10 yrs here...

I did have some minor 'alterations' done to my av tho...

Glad you're here!!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the lands reality has never been much of an issue with me... i have always insisted on its reality, if the whole thing is in TCs head then I will be in a serious state of denial when that revelation comes about. but the fact that the last chrons has been written, it almost removes any possibility of it being all a figment of TCs imagination..PLEASE LET IT NOT BE A DREAM!!! or even worse.. what if Linden wakes up wondering.. I had a dream about a guy named Thomas Covenant.. but he doesnt exist.... could it all be from Lindens point of view in the end? ok ..im getting off track now...


I would love to see Gilden Fire Expanded and Woven back into to The Illearth War somehow,.... I already did it with the Audio version I have but there is some overlap. I am all for a special edition of the Illearth war...Authors Cut Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a great fan of Gilden Fire, and have no problem reconciling it into the overall scheme of the first Chrons. I take on board the reasoning behind it's removal from the final MS but in the light of the end of the first series where I always assumed the Lands reality was confirmed (it appears I may have been wrong on that though!) it seemed a perfectly acceptable thing to present it as a small out-take in the way it was. I have to say I would go even further - I remember SRD saying in the intro to GF that he was a notorious over-writer and that part of a writers job was editing out those parts of a draught that were in some way wrong, did not fit or were badly written. I would love to read it all - just as it flowed out of Donaldsons head, before the cold reality of editing tweaks and pulls it into shape. That for me would be a real adventure!
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
I'm a great fan of Gilden Fire, and have no problem reconciling it into the overall scheme of the first Chrons. I take on board the reasoning behind it's removal from the final MS but in the light of the end of the first series where I always assumed the Lands reality was confirmed (it appears I may have been wrong on that though!) it seemed a perfectly acceptable thing to present it as a small out-take in the way it was. I have to say I would go even further - I remember SRD saying in the intro to GF that he was a notorious over-writer and that part of a writers job was editing out those parts of a draught that were in some way wrong, did not fit or were badly written. I would love to read it all - just as it flowed out of Donaldsons head, before the cold reality of editing tweaks and pulls it into shape. That for me would be a real adventure!


I understand where you're coming from, but reading such a draft would be also a shallower experience as well, I think..
I just think there would be rougher edges, possible contradictions and so forth which could make it less than it could be.. I mean I am all for the added detail, extra depth to certain characters, more random stories and interactions between characters, but I also want it to be the highest quality so it fits into the rest of the world so perfectly well.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is fair comment Ninjaboy, and I must confess the very point did cross my mind as I was writing the above post. Not all the out-takes are going to be like Gilden Fire, and then you would just have the badly written stuff, the contradictory stuff, the stuff that just plain don't work etc etc....
I guess what I really would like is for the whole first Chrons to have been about twice as long and even bigger in it's scope - I just loved it soooo much!
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hail All Bloodguard Fans,

I'm with SRD with regard to his explanation of why he didn't leave Gilden-Fire in TIW. For me it has to do with the feeling that you get from both Covenant's and Hile Troy's perspectives. The important thing is that they are both from our world and so we slip into easily into their point-of-view.

I remember reading the Chrons for the first time and being totally immersed. It didn't matter that Covenant didn't believe in the Land I was doing plenty enough of that for both of us. Ditto Troy. But, my feeling is that being thrust into the perspective of the Bloodguard would not have felt consistent. We never got Atiaran's perspective, nor Foamfollower's, so why choose the Bloodguard. It would have imposed a significance on them that wasn't warranted.

They are important to the Land, but more important than the Giants? More important than the people of the Land? More important than the Waynhim? The Ranyhyn? You could argue that they are the most important people (outside of Covenant, Troy and Elena and the Lords) in TIW and that that is justification enough. And, my feeling still is that SRD needed to maintain the 'real' world perspective to reflect Covenant's Unbelief. In TPTP, even before Covenant is summoned to the Land we get to see it from Mhoram's perspective. This reflects Covenant's growing recognition of the Land's importance, if not reality.

I really enjoyed reading Gilden-Fire as an addendum to the 1st and 2nd Chronicles. It added a extra dimension to the whole story. Yet part of the experience had been the potent mystery of the Haruchai. What motivated them? What were they really like? Why were they the way they were? Mystery is a puissant tool for a writer when developing character. It fuels the imagination of the reader in a way that a lot of detail may fail to do.

To give an example from popular fiction: Thomas Harris's 'Hannibal Lecter' is one of the most iconic characters ever created. In 'Silence of the Lambs' (book and movie) we are shown a character of pure evil. He is mythic, terrifying and inexplicable. In the sequels Harris gave Lecter a backstory and in so doing made him human, explicable and much less potent.

If there is one word that characterises the Haruchai it is: 'potent'. I think that SRD was justified in removing anything that threatened to diminish their potence as characters.

Blackhawk said:
Quote:
I am all for a special edition of the Illearth war...Authors Cut

As to an Author's Cut of the book, it's debatable. A writer wants their work to be as good as it possibly can be. A Fan's Cut of the book? I'd buy that!

By the Vow,

I love the Blooodguard,

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm getting a copy of gildenfire soon, it was a long time ago that I read it.
From my recollection it didn't really add that much to what I regarded as the important elements of the tale an the story flowed quite well without it. If I recall the part I think should've been written in was the 3 bloodguard returning to revelstone as corrupted bloodguard. I think that was important and quite a shock, having said that sometimes leaving a lot to the imagination via mhorams nightmare is more emotionally impacting than spelling it out. Foul is more ominous when you see the effects of his power than when we meet the being himself.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ussusimiel's points are valid on all counts, but I think we have to remember that SRD did break his own rule on primary charachter perspective always being 'our world' based on at least a couple of occasions without it damaging the 'is it/isn't it real' aspect of the story (Morham has a piece where he is alone in his rooms and takes the first perspective role briefly and is it Tull's Tale where the Bloodguard recount their journey to Seareach where the same happens?). His skill as a spinner of tales draws you in to the point where he can take such 'liberties' with the plot coherence and pull them off in a manner that a lesser writer would find difficult.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hail peter!

I have read and enjoyed many of your posts on the Watch.

It is so rare to be agreed with that I am a little suspicious, but I accept the gift!

I never spotted the perspective change in that interaction between Mhoram and Covenant after he had visited the Unfettered One (with whom, I notice, we are both aligned Big Grin ). Thanks for that acute observation. I think it is seamless because we are in the presence of Covenant all through it and we also identify with Mhoram quite easily. More easily, maybe not suprisingly, than we identify with Covenant.

As for Tull's tale, first of all it is a spoken story, so we don't have that internal view involving mindspeech. Secondly, as has been pointed out elsewhere, switching fully into Tull's perspective is a subtle way of showing that Tull is new to the Vow, and thus we get a further almost unregistered insight into the passionate nature of the Haruchai.

None of this detracts from SRD's storytelling mastery, it all adds to it in my opinion. But, not including the Gilden-Fire episode is also, for me, a sign of that mastery.

Out of interest (and totally off-topic) why do you choose to call yourself Unfettered?

u.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Ussusimel. re the Unfettered status - like most people I like to think I am a little bit different (and of course special) in my own way. Of course in most likleyhood I'm not but hey, here's hoping. Laughing
I liked the whole Unfettered idea, the going of to pursue your own dream - and in particular I have a soft spot for Nassic, the old man who greets TC to the Land at the start of Chrons 2. That guy's the mad one who turns out to be right all along. That I can handle.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed - the disappearance of the unfettered was a real downer after the First Chronicles. I kept expecting Lord Prothall or one of the others to ride to the rescue from the north with a band of unfettered... but I think I'd been reading too much Tolkien or something. Of course, the whole point of the unfettered is that they pursued their individual leanings.

(Or am I imagining that Prothall disappeared off to become an unfettered?)

Though Anele is as much an unfettered as any of the old tribe in many ways.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:

Quote:
I liked the whole Unfettered idea, the going of to pursue your own dream - and in particular I have a soft spot for Nassic, the old man who greets TC to the Land at the start of Chrons 2. That guy's the mad one who turns out to be right all along. That I can handle.

I like the idea of the Unfettered too. I probably chose it because no matter what I like I almost always find myself on the fringes of it. Even here I started a thread for people who, like myself can't enjoy the 3rd Chrons: http://kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21040

I like all the Unfettered in the Chrons. My favourite is the one Triock meets in TIW.

Quote:
Here... can be seen the entire ancient history of the Land. For one whose work is to see. In these myriad facets are a myriad perceptions of all that has occurred. All!


Quote:
Here... I see men with axes - men of the ground with blades formed from the bones of the ground - I see them cut - !


Quote:
My life is not the equal of this rock.


I like the idea of someone trying to see the slow breath of mountains. I like the idea of that depth of meditation. SRD once more shows his power as a writer. A short interaction, a few pieces of dialogue and he gives you something to conjure with for the rest of your life.

I get your idea about Nassic. The only sane one in the madhouse! I don't know if I'd really count him among the Unfettered though. He seems too deranged whereas the Unfettered seem almost obsessionally focused.



barnetto wrote:
Quote:
I kept expecting Lord Prothall or one of the others to ride to the rescue from the north with a band of unfettered... (Or am I imagining that Prothall disappeared off to become an unfettered?)



Hi Barnetto,

Good to meet you.

Early in TIW, in the chapter 'Lord Kevin's Lament', when Covenant is questioning Bannor we find out that Prothall:

Quote:
... had resigned his Lordship even before his company had returned to Revelstone. He had not been able to forget that the old Hearththrall Birinair had died in his place. .... He had committed the Staff and the Second Ward to Lord Mhoram's care, and ridden away to his home in the Northern Climbs. The inhabitants of the Lord's Keep never saw him again.


I like your idea of Prothall riding to the rescue with a band of Unfettered. It'd be a small band though. I know of only four in the 1st Chrons. They would be powerful though, with a deep knowledge of the Seven Words.

It is good to spend time in the company of those who appreciate the Unfettered. It makes me feel less Lone

Unfriended

Bondless

Lone.

Maybe, I'm not cut out for this Unfettered lark after all Screwy

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ussusimiel wrote:
never spotted the perspective change in that interaction between Mhoram and Covenant after he had visited the Unfettered One (with whom, I notice, we are both aligned ). Thanks for that acute observation. I think it is seamless because we are in the presence of Covenant all through it and we also identify with Mhoram quite easily. More easily, maybe not suprisingly, than we identify with Covenant.


Wasn't there also a bit from Mhoram's perspective in TPTP, before Covenant was even summoned?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I am going to say at the moment is "thank you all!" for posting in this thread today. I had forgotten I wanted to pack the copy of Gilden-Fire Fist and Faith sent me to be signed by SRD at elohimfest.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
All I am going to say at the moment is "thank you all!" for posting in this thread today. I had forgotten I wanted to pack the copy of Gilden-Fire Fist and Faith sent me to be signed by SRD at elohimfest.


Glad to be of service, Menolly. Wouldn't want you to feel the ire of the Fist Laughing


Cambo wrote:
Quote:
Wasn't there also a bit from Mhoram's perspective in TPTP, before Covenant was even summoned?


Yeah, Mhoram is the first, but loads of TPTP is from others' perspective because the action happens in lots of different locations at the same time. I suppose, at that stage Covenant is committed to the Land:

Quote:
All right, Mhoram,... [c]ome and get me. It's all over now.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ussusimiel wrote:
Quote:
All I am going to say at the moment is "thank you all!" for posting in this thread today. I had forgotten I wanted to pack the copy of Gilden-Fire Fist and Faith sent me to be signed by SRD at elohimfest.


Glad to be of service, Menolly. Wouldn't want you to feel the ire of the Fist Laughing

Oh! That didn't come out quite right...

This copy of Gilden-Fire was a gift from Fist to me; I'm the one who wants it signed by SRD. I don't think I would have earned Fist's ire. He would have more likely been amused if I forgot it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah! I understand.

I'm glad we reminded you, anyway. I was joking about Fist's ire, in any case, as I only know about the strength of Fist's opinions, not emotions Big Grin
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ussusimiel wrote:
Ah! I understand.

I'm glad we reminded you, anyway. I was joking about Fist's ire, in any case, as I only know about the strength of Fist's opinions, not emotions Big Grin


In my experience, he's very....even handed.
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