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Joan's Madness
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dlbpharmd
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Good post Xar. I'm not sure about the complicity of the Masters in Kevin's Dirt though. Although it serves their purpose, the Haruchai have no use for, or skill in, Earthpower themselves. They have no Lore.


True, but we know that the Earthpower has answered the passion of the Haruchai before. Is it possible that through the strength of their convictions they were able to forge some new kind of Vow, one that the Earthpower answered and that resulted in the creation of Kevin's Dirt?
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought there was a reference to an idividual that is working independant of Foul? Don't have the book here, but I'm almost sure that Lord Foul told Linden that he isn't responsable and that some one else was working to that end. I could be wrong, the wheels in my old head need some grease and they are a little rusty. Now you all are going to make me re-read ROTE! Smile
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xar wrote:
Wayfriend wrote:
Wild magic. It trumps Earthpower and Law every time. Wink Plus the ceasures are enabled by the breaking of the Laws of Death and Life, and we are assured that this damage remains extant, despite the new Staff.


True, but at that time, Joan had no ring... so either the caesure was one of those Joan had created in the future, which existed in all times simultaneously and therefore showed up in Anele's time, or it was created by someone else.
In either case, the question remains as to why, of all the people in the Land and of all places in the Land, a caesure "just happened" to show up near to Anele's cave, who just happened to be the holder of the Staff of Law. It seems to me that it was just... awfully convenient for Foul's plans (and/or for whoever created Kevin's Dirt) that a caesure would pick up the only person who could wield the Staff to make caesures and Kevin's Dirt more difficult, if not impossible, to create. Of course, you might say it's the other way around - that it was because of Anele's disappearance that Foul and the other entity came up with the plan(s) of Kevin's Dirt and of the caesures; but I tend to believe Foul already knew what he would be going to do even before Anele's disappearance (attacking Time is the logical next step for him, after attacking Nature... it would make sense that he would think of that as his next plan, and then would try to set events in motion so he could execute it).

... or it may be that the assumption that Anele losing the Staff is related to Kevin's Dirt and/or related to ceasures is not valid.

The only real evidence we have says that Foul didn't create either the ceasures or kevin's dirt. And Donaldson himself said that the Staff becomes crucial to Law only through use, and that the new Staff has not been used enough to have that happen, and anyway Law was damaged before the new Staff was created and it creating it didn't repair the Law. So "removing it" by time travel may have done nothing bad at all.

I'm just saying, don't give too much credit to logic derived from so many shaky assumptions.
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the welcomes - great website.

Some interesting ideas being floated here. I remember reading in Runes something about Caesures only being able to 'relocate' its inhabitants forward in time, which is why Anele ended up where he was found. Infact, Linden with the help of the Rynyhyn had to effectively battle against the current to go backwards. Maybe she should create another caesure and travel forward a few years to see what Foul is up to, then come back to remedy his ill work.

Guessing ahead for future books - I came to the conclusion that Linden will survive ultimately in our world, despite the curent bullet wound, by travelling slightly back in time in the land, before she first arrived in ROTE and destroying her summoner (was it Roger or Joan/Raver, or Foul). Upon the death of the summoner she will arrive back in time to dodge the bullet.

I just realised that this doesn't explain the bullet hole in her shirt - if she never gets shot, it wouldn't still be there.... ahhh the paradox of time travel
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it will be like that... in fact, I don't think SRD will use time travel (if Linden et al. are, indeed, going to use caesures again) in simple ways. For example, traveling to the future to see Foul's machinations and then coming back to prevent them would sound like a very easy way to break the Arch; by the same token, if she were to go back in time and kill her summoner (can you envision Linden killing people, especially people like Roger or Joan, who have become essentially thralls of Foul's, by the way?), she'd create a huge paradox that would destroy the Arch (because she wouldn't be summoned, so she wouldn't be in the Land, so she couldn't kill her summoner, so she would be summoned...).
Besides, I have the feeling that by "The Last Dark", there won't be much left of the Land, the Arch, or anything like that...
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:
Quote:
Good post Xar. I'm not sure about the complicity of the Masters in Kevin's Dirt though. Although it serves their purpose, the Haruchai have no use for, or skill in, Earthpower themselves. They have no Lore.


True, but we know that the Earthpower has answered the passion of the Haruchai before. Is it possible that through the strength of their convictions they were able to forge some new kind of Vow, one that the Earthpower answered and that resulted in the creation of Kevin's Dirt?


That's a good one Dlb. We know Earthpower still exists, and we know that the "dirt" (damn, I hate that name), has limits in terms of direction/altitude. I wonder if it covers only the Master's demense?

And if this is true, why would earthpower help them suppress earthpower?

And who's the ceasure-creator? Esmer?

Laughing The next few books are going to be very interesting.

And yeah Xar and Black_Grape, time-travel always opens a big bag of what-ifs. Fun, innit? Still, I agree with Xar that it would have to cancel out anything she did if that particular route was tried.

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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even as Bloodguard the Haruchai had no use for lore 'we have no use for Lore, but the Lords do good work with it so we do not resist, although we do not serve or save it'. Well they do save it at the request of the Lords when they preserved the 2nd ward etc. I haven't read Runes for a while but I'm sure there is some comment in there which clarifies that the Masters didnt create the dirt though they find it useful in supressing knowledge of Earthpower. I could be mis-remembering though.

About the bullet hole, what in the Land could cause that anyway? If when people leave the Land they are made to resemble their physical condition, what could cause Linden to be shot (unless of course they find some way round it by burning her with some form of beam of power or something)? Does Roger come to the Land armed and dangerous? I wonder how the Masters would feel about guns?
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KAY1 wrote:
Does Roger come to the Land armed and dangerous? I wonder how the Masters would feel about guns?
There was a lot of Watch speculation at one point about whether or not Roger has his gun if/when he is transported to the Land. If Covenant can bring his pocket-knife ...
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KAY1 wrote:
Even as Bloodguard the Haruchai had no use for lore 'we have no use for Lore, but the Lords do good work with it so we do not resist, although we do not serve or save it'. Well they do save it at the request of the Lords when they preserved the 2nd ward etc. I haven't read Runes for a while but I'm sure there is some comment in there which clarifies that the Masters didnt create the dirt though they find it useful in supressing knowledge of Earthpower. I could be mis-remembering though.

About the bullet hole, what in the Land could cause that anyway? If when people leave the Land they are made to resemble their physical condition, what could cause Linden to be shot (unless of course they find some way round it by burning her with some form of beam of power or something)? Does Roger come to the Land armed and dangerous? I wonder how the Masters would feel about guns?


Remember that in the SC, Covenant's knife wound in the real world was eventually mirrored by a dart of wild magic Foul thrust into Covenant's chest; it wouldn't be too far-fetched to imagine a number of possibilities for Linden's bullet hole, which would not contemplate guns. As for using Earthpower on the part of the Haruchai: they might simply not have been aware of it. It just seems too advantageous for them - and we know that Foul didn't create it, and the Elohim who visited the Stonedown accused the Masters to make people weak and ignorant - which probably would have sounded different if the Dirt had been created, say, by Kastenessen. Just a hunch, at least...
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anybody yet suggested the idea that Kevin's Dirt might have been created by somebody like the Elohim to prevent Joan from using her white ring more effectively?
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

callback wrote:
Has anybody yet suggested the idea that Kevin's Dirt might have been created by somebody like the Elohim to prevent Joan from using her white ring more effectively?
Has there been anything that suggested that it does?
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend wrote:
callback wrote:
Has anybody yet suggested the idea that Kevin's Dirt might have been created by somebody like the Elohim to prevent Joan from using her white ring more effectively?
Has there been anything that suggested that it does?


Well, SRD spent a good deal of time in The Wounded Land explaining that TC was not able to use his power effectively at least partly because he no longer had access to his health sense.

Also consider the words of Lord Foul.

"The caesures are none of mine. Also I had no hand in your blindness, for I did not utter the fine riposte of Kevin's Dirt."

Note that Foul denies authorship of Kevin's Dirt and claims that it exists as a COUNTER to the caesures.
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that "riposte" refers to the caesures. I'd have to dig out the book and have a look at the whole conversation to hazard a guess at what he was talking about, but caesures are an expression of wild magic - Kevin's Dirt is a supression of Earthpower, which is by definition subservient to wild magic.
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, we know that Joan is in the Sarangrave, and one might assume that Kevin's Dirt does not extend into the Sarangrave from the Upper Land.
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I don't think that Kevin's Dirt is an answer to the caesures either. Also, if the Elohim had created it, it would be strange (to say the least) to see them going through the blinded Land, and then complaining with the Masters because they have stripped the people of the Land of their heritage. The fact that the Elohim were not pleased with the ignorance of the people of the Land in regards to their history and to Earthpower suggests that, in fact, the Elohim had nothing to do with it. And it is unlikely that Kevin's Dirt be an expression or product of Kastenessen either: given that he was imprisoned by the Elohim, I would expect him to strike at the Elohim, not at the Land's perception of Earthpower. And we already know that Foul never lies - he twists truth, but he does not lie. So, if Kevin's Dirt is not a product of the Elohim, it is not Foul's, and it is not Kastenessen's, who created it? I cannot believe Esmer has this kind of power - and in any case, he serves Kastenessen, so it would make no sense for him to create K.D.; but here's a thought... what if the creator or origin of K.D. were within Revelstone - in the person of the Mahdoubt? She is, after all, an unknown power with an unknown identity and unknown agenda - whereas for all the other powers, we can find reasons why they would not have created Kevin's Dirt...
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
what if the creator or origin of K.D. were within Revelstone - in the person of the Mahdoubt? She is, after all, an unknown power with an unknown identity and unknown agenda


Interesting - this might explain why the Haruchai allow her to stay in Revelstone, since their goal of removing all knowledge of Earthpower goes hand-in-hand with KD.
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or, reversing the order, it could mean that she came to Revelstone because of the Haruchai's decision to establish their Mastery...
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:
Also, we know that Joan is in the Sarangrave, and one might assume that Kevin's Dirt does not extend into the Sarangrave from the Upper Land.


That's a good objection, but we could speculate that Kevin's Dirt blankets the Land and forces Joan to send caesures randomly instead of aimed at strategic points. Or it may do something else that we don't have a clue about yet.

As for the Elohim, well, here's the rest of what the Despiser said about this.

"The caesures are none of mine. Also I had no hand in your blindness, for I did not utter the fine riposte of Kevin's Dirt. If you fear what has been done, think on the Elohim and feel despair. They serve me as do the Haruchai, unwittingly, and in arrogance."

The implication is that Kevin's Dirt is the Elohim's response to caesures.
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xar wrote:
Yes, I don't think that Kevin's Dirt is an answer to the caesures either. Also, if the Elohim had created it, it would be strange (to say the least) to see them going through the blinded Land, and then complaining with the Masters because they have stripped the people of the Land of their heritage. The fact that the Elohim were not pleased with the ignorance of the people of the Land in regards to their history and to Earthpower suggests that, in fact, the Elohim had nothing to do with it.


Is it really so hard to imagine the Elohim telling the Haruchai "You can't decide how Earthpower is utilized in The Land. That's OUR job!"
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:
Also, we know that Joan is in the Sarangrave, and one might assume that Kevin's Dirt does not extend into the Sarangrave from the Upper Land.

When did that happen? Are we extrapolating from the presence of skest?
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