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Deadhouse Gates [Spoilers]
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:59 am    Post subject: Deadhouse Gates [Spoilers] Reply with quote

This is one of my favourite books of all time especially the whole 'Chain of Dogs' stuff but i really think that the ending was a massive let down. Firstly, Kalam and lover just get dropped all of a sudden and the reader is left to wonder what the hell has just happened and then the brilliant, intenesly sad end to the chain of dogs storyline is undermined because it seems both Duiker and Coltaine will live on. Now, i appreciate that there's still a long way to go in the story and kalam's situation will be further explained but didn't anyone else think that Shadowthrone entering and granting them wishes was a bit weak? After such a great journey i dont think it's good to leave your reader with such a deflated feeling even if there's many more books to be written.

I can see that Duiker should probably come back because he had changed so profoundly that it would be interesting to see how he'll end up. But Coltaine was a leader, a soldier, he died a valiant, heart wrenching death and he should have been left dead IMO.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought it added to the impact of Coltaine's death, rather than taking away. When the swarm of crows were trying to reach him, then as he died they all swooped in and took his soul... well, when you've been told it's something that only happens to the strongest of Wickan souls, and that Sormo Enath, the strongest of them, was carried by only eleven crows, it just adds to his legacy. I thought it was a pretty powerful moment, both the death and the crows appearing on the horizon in the Wickan Plains at the end.
Would it help to know that he won't be playing a further part in the series, even if still alive? Erikson has said that since he'll only be a newborn child, he won't reappear.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murrin wrote:

Would it help to know that he won't be playing a further part in the series, even if still alive? Erikson has said that since he'll only be a newborn child, he won't reappear.


yes, that does help. I thought it was just a weak plot device to get him back.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with Murrin (I think I'll get that made into a shirt). It was such a dramatic moment, including Squint's shot. I think the crows only added to it, but yeah, a kind of immediate return, on either's part, would cheapen it. Don't know if I missed it (I have a sneaking suspicion, but it's not worth spoilering) or not, but I still haven't seen any sign of Duiker, and that kind of surprises me.

very mild TBH spoiler involving that
Spoiler:
I thought the conversation between Apsalar and Squint on the ship was just amazing. I think I teared up a little bit
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syl wrote:
Don't know if I missed it (I have a sneaking suspicion, but it's not worth spoilering) or not, but I still haven't seen any sign of Duiker, and that kind of surprises me.

MoI:
Spoiler:
The Epilogue - "This is the story of the Chain of Dogs...."
Supposedly he'll reappear along with the other regulars of K'rul's Tavern in Toll the Hounds, since that book will return the story to Genabackis.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murrin wrote:
Syl wrote:
Don't know if I missed it (I have a sneaking suspicion, but it's not worth spoilering) or not, but I still haven't seen any sign of Duiker, and that kind of surprises me.

MoI:
Spoiler:
The Epilogue - "This is the story of the Chain of Dogs...."
Supposedly he'll reappear along with the other regulars of K'rul's Tavern in Toll the Hounds, since that book will return the story to Genabackis.



god wasn't that brilliant! i loved it.

you know...spoiler blackouts don't work for me. Laughing i have no willpower to NOT look at them! Big Grin


Murrin wrote:
I thought it was a pretty powerful moment, both the death and the crows appearing on the horizon in the Wickan Plains at the end.


so did i.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finished it this afternoon; the scene outside Aren's gates nearly had me wailing out loud in frustration/anger/sadness. Amazing bit of writing, that chapter.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I only read the first sentence or two of the first post, cuz I'm about 650 pages or so in and I didn't want to read any spoilers. I like this book better than GotM. The narrative has much better flow. I like the way the chapters are organized, and the way that Erikson predictably changes PoV 2 or 3 times per chapter. I really like the fact that he doesn't drop a key storyline for 100's of pages. That is nice.

But as the book has progressed, I find myself getting more and more frustrated. The elements of the first book that I didn't like are becoming more and more prominent. Do all of his books have to feature a Jhag and a freaking Azath? And could he explain what in the world an Azath is? It's driving me nuts. I thought after the first book that the Jhags were all gone, but we have one in this book who's been wandering around the land of the 7 cities for millenia. And there's a region known as the jhagut odhan in the area. I'm confused. Does the race still exist in the jhagut odhan? Or is Icarium one of the only ones left? I also find it bizarre that these creatures are so powerful. How in the world can this guy just destroy an entire city, as he has supposedly done countless times through his life? I really don't like the whole jhagut concept. And I hate the azath concept, mainly because it is so poorly defined, I have no idea what one is.

On the other hand, I think that the story of Duiker and the chain of dogs has been outstanding. I also really like the story of Kalam. I liked the story of Heboric, Baudin and Felisin up until the point that they got on the ghost ship. I found that sequence of events totally bizarre, and I didn't understand the narrative at all that described their escape and transport to the rarakur. I really hated that section.

And my final pet-peeve: The soletaken and the D'ivers. What are these creatures? I get that they're shape-changers, but why are there two different types? What distinguishes one from another? I really don't like them. They just seem to appear randomly, make a mess, then disappear, without any rhyme or reason.

Summing things up, I wish the books would just stick to more normal things, like battle and chase-narratives. I really don't like all of the super-natural elements in the two books I've read so far. I guess I may give book 3 a shot (after I hit some other books on my to-do list), mainly because it's call "memories of ice," and I figure that there may be a lot of travel in and around glaciers and the like. I really like glaciers, and think that that sort of landscape could make for a really good backdrop for a novel.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay farm-ur ted. give up and go read Earthsea.

its a bit easier to follow!!!!!! More Razz Laughing



Quote:
I really like glaciers, and think that that sort of landscape could make for a really good backdrop for a novel.


not a good reason to continue, in my estimation.



i'll say, in order to counter my above smartypantsness, that, these books, this series is NOT like a serially told sequence of stories.
the second book is not going to pick up with the same story line right where the first one left off (you must have figured that out by now)....
neither is the third one going to pick up where the second one left off.

this series is volumes in an historical account of an empire.

the subtitle of all the books in the series is A Tale of The Malazan Book of the Fallen which implies different volumes in a large story. a VERY large story.

and here i quote from the wiki article which i HIGHLY suggest you might want to peruse. it's quite helpful if you continue to be interested.

Quote:
The series is not told in a linear fashion. Instead, several storylines progress simultaneously, with the individual novels moving backwards and forwards between them. As the series progresses, links between these storylines become more readily apparent. During a book signing in November 2005, Steven Erikson confirmed that the Malazan saga consists of three major story arcs, equating them to the points of a triangle.




having said all that, to each his own, right? some like it, some don't.

i love it. i haven't had any of the problems that some readers seem to have getting into it or staying with it. i eagerly await not only the next book (Bonehunters is fantastic) but my next read through the entire series thus far!!!

that doesn't mean i understand everything that's going on or can follow every thread. i have questions.

that's why i'm trying to get as many people to read it as possible. so we can get some discussions going in here. the only reason i haven't started any threads is because for the last two semesters i've had LARGE reading lists for my classes and haven't had time to start the series over again.

anyway...blah blah blah...sorry. how i do go on! Embarassed Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Icarium isn't really the same thing as the Jaghut in GotM, or any of the other Jaghut in the series (there are a few. Not major characters, but they pop up now and then). Icarium is, first of all, a Jhag--a half-breed. There's an entire subspecies of them living somewhere in either the Jhag Odhan or Quon Tali--I can't quite remember. Anyhow, Icarium is unique among even them, because he's the only one--probably the only living thing in the entire world of the series--who is that powerful. He's probably the most powerful character in the series. The reasons for that are not explained explicitly or all at once.

A soletaken is a shapechanger that turns into a single animal. A d'ivers transforms into a group of animals--a higher number the more powerful the being is. It's all tied up with what happened in Raraku during the First Empire.


Oh, and... you may be disappointed with MoI, on that count. The title is misleading--the book takes place in central Genabackis, like GotM.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ooh, and did i mention Murrin is our resident Malazan expert!!!

we should have an Ask Murrin thread!!! Wink Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I generally like being immersed into a world without everything being explained, but yes, the Azath house has always confused me. I picture it some sort of giant tree house standing on the ground, but it is very sparsely described.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murrin wrote:
Icarium isn't really the same thing as the Jaghut in GotM, or any of the other Jaghut in the series (there are a few. Not major characters, but they pop up now and then). Icarium is, first of all, a Jhag--a half-breed. There's an entire subspecies of them living somewhere in either the Jhag Odhan or Quon Tali--I can't quite remember. Anyhow, Icarium is unique among even them, because he's the only one--probably the only living thing in the entire world of the series--who is that powerful. He's probably the most powerful character in the series. The reasons for that are not explained explicitly or all at once.

House of Chains Spoiler
Spoiler:
Is Karsa Orlong stronger, or is he just plain better?


And, since you know stuff...Random Unrelated Questions warning.
---
Does being part of the deck make you an ascendant?
Spoiler:
Or, do Karsa, Paran, and other people get the same sorta strength benefits as people like Gesler?

Midnight Tides Spoilers
Spoiler:
And is Rhulad an ascendant since he's come back to life?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer the last two: the line between mortal and ascendant is incredibly blurred. It's hard to tell when one becomes the other, though it usually requires that the person not only be exceptional but be put through exceptional circumstances.

To the first question:
Spoiler:
Erikson has said that the idea behind Karsa is a person of incredible willpower. He does the things he does simply out of tenacity and strength of will--mind over matter, in a sense. Hence his impressive feat at the end of HoC. He's just too bloody stubborn to lose.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your answers.

Although I'm continuing my theme of being off-topic, this is my last question (at least until I finish Bonehunters, which just arrived). It's about memories of ice, and I think anyone who's read it can probably answer.

Spoiler:
Is the Pannion Seer tied to the Crippled God? I feel like I remember something linking the two, but now I can't remember where I'm getting that feeling from.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoiler:
Y'know, I'm not sure on that one myself. The Crippled God's poisoning of the warrens used the Pannion Domin as a cover--by localising it, it looked as though the Pannion Seer's power was responsible, and took longer for people to realise it wasn't. But if there was a direct relationship, I really don't know. It is suggested here and there in the book, but IIRC it was never actually confirmed...


Edit: I've made a HoC topic. We appear to already have GotM, DG, MoI, and tBH topics; MT will follow when I can be bothered/when discussion starts cropping up more.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Icarium and Mappo are like the Laurel and Hardy of the Malazan world. They're the light relief. Every time Icarium starts to remember something or looks like unleashing his awesome powers Mappo clubs him over the head--Icarium wakes up 6 hours later and Mappo feeds him some shit about walking in to a tree or falling down a ravine. It's bloody hilarious.

I'm not sure Erikson intended it to be, though. Cool Razz
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I finished the book last weekend. I have to say that I really liked the last 200 pages or so. The azath didn't annoy me as much as I was expecting. That section was actually pretty entertaining. I guess it was a case of azath anxiety. I didn't like it's bizarre appearance at the end of GotM, and was worried that it was going to be more of the same at the end of DG. I'm just starting up the Gap series (my second shot at reading it, but 15 years later), then I think I may be compelled to read MoI next, even though I know that parts of it are going to piss me off. I'm a bit bummed that there's no ice in it, though. Maybe in someone's memories?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, wait--there is some ice in it. One of the subplots involves a trip across frozen waters, but it's a short part.
Just wait 'til Midnight Tides. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murrin wrote:
Oh, wait--there is some ice in it. One of the subplots involves a trip across frozen waters, but it's a short part.
Just wait 'til Midnight Tides. Wink


I want crevasses, icefalls and avalanches! And maybe a few frozen dead guys.
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