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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A robot run government can tax the f*** out of a robot driven workforce, for all I care - just so long as they keep their grubby metallic hands off the pile that I won't be earning! Wink

(Digression, and Trump (and us Brits) are worried about immigrants taking our jobs!)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a funny old world... Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Incidentally, the hot trend in robotics right now crosses over with the adult entertainment industry. I am certain that I need not elaborate.


peter wrote:
A robot run government can tax the f*** out of a robot driven workforce, for all I care


I see what you did there. Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing I didn't - but I do now!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't give these guys any ideas!
We don't need to start a robo porn site.
(Probably will make a lot of bitcoins in the process)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ur Dead wrote:
Don't give these guys any ideas!
We don't need to start a robo porn site.
(Probably will make a lot of bitcoins in the process)


[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_34_(Internet_meme)]Rule 34[/url]; therefore, robo porn sites already exist.

hrm...not sure why the tag isn't working correctly. must be the parentheses causing a problem

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Ur Dead wrote:
Don't give these guys any ideas!
We don't need to start a robo porn site.
(Probably will make a lot of bitcoins in the process)


[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_34_(Internet_meme)]Rule 34[/url]; therefore, robo porn sites already exist.

hrm...not sure why the tag isn't working correctly. must be the parentheses causing a problem

Do you need to put the url is quotations? Like this? [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_34_(Internet_meme)"]Rule 34[/url]; therefore, robo porn sites already exist.

edit: Apparently not. Well, this was a useless post then.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hierachy wrote:

edit: Apparently not. Well, this was a useless post then.


No posts are useless. Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Incidentally, the hot trend in robotics right now crosses over with the adult entertainment industry. I am certain that I need not elaborate.


peter wrote:
A robot run government can tax the f*** out of a robot driven workforce, for all I care


I see what you did there. Mr. Green


Quote:
The robot that takes your job should pay taxes, says Bill Gates

Robots are taking human jobs. But Bill Gates believes that governments should tax companies' use of them, as a way to at least temporarily slow the spread of automation and to fund other types of employment.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill Gates should stick to designing shitty operating systems.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
There is an op-ed in the New York Times which laments the fact that we are not as mobile as we used to be--at one time people would pack their belongings and move several States away to pursue an opportunity but that the rate at which we do that now is about half what it was in the 1960s. Our younger generation is not very business-minded (entrepreneurship by those under 30 is down 65% from the 1980s)...


I was planning to use my tax return to move from Washington to Utah so I could work with a friend at his film production job, that all fell through and I almost started weeping when I read this Hashi Razz
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Three Laws of Robotics set by Asimov.

1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a
human being to come to harm.

2. A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where
such orders would conflict with the First Law.

3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.

Now most people will assume that the industry will follow these writing
as gospels. Most likely they will not.
But if they did then wouldn't human beings come to or be expose to some
type of harm if the robot took away their means to live?
No government help or a pay.

I would think a great number of people would rise up and wreck
vengence on the owners.
or the robots unionized and strike because while they are working it denying
humans an income to live. Thus causing harm.

Robots will play a substantial role in globalization.

China and India may reject them.. they have cheap labor.. and allot of it.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's this concept of a utility fog, IDK if it depends only on nanobots or generally just microscale machines (even if not quite nanoscale), the idea sounds almost incredible but apparently the fog would be made to suffuse the entire planet's atmosphere and it would allow us to build entire cities out of thin air/magnetic fields/etc. Such a thing would do away with the issue of socialism vs. capitalism or any such economic ideology, I think. What's supply and demand when you could just wish for an object, basically, and the fog could construct it for you right then and there?

EDIT: It amuses me to read scifi stories where people worry about resources, or there are resource wars, or whatever, after people already have interstellar travel tech. Don't they know there are blobs of ice (for instance) suspended in the galactic void, that dwarf the water needs of all human existence as we've known it? Celestial mining would, I think, also do away with the scarcity problem as it plays a role in economic theorizing to date.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ur Dead wrote:

I would think a great number of people would rise up and wreck
vengence on the owners.


Like in Asimov's Caves of Steel. Very Happy


Quote:
China and India may reject them.. they have cheap labor.. and allot of it.


Interesting point.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mighara Sovmadhi wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
There is an op-ed in the New York Times which laments the fact that we are not as mobile as we used to be--at one time people would pack their belongings and move several States away to pursue an opportunity but that the rate at which we do that now is about half what it was in the 1960s. Our younger generation is not very business-minded (entrepreneurship by those under 30 is down 65% from the 1980s)...


I was planning to use my tax return to move from Washington to Utah so I could work with a friend at his film production job, that all fell through and I almost started weeping when I read this Hashi Razz


Any emotional discomfort you endured was entirely unintentional since I had no idea you were planning to do that.

I am not mobile at this time in my life because of circumstances--moving would require forcing the spouse to leave her job, uproot the kids from their schools where they have history, forcing the sister-in-law to find other living arrangements or quit her job and move, as well, etc.

Asimov's Three Laws lead directly to the Zeroth Law.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why Old-Timey Jobs Are Hot Again

I think calling these "old-timey jobs" misses the more salient point that they are niche "luxury" services, but the article nevertheless makes my point that millennials are creating new* types of service jobs, in direct response and contrast to the impersonal, alienating forces of digital age. This proves not only that people are capable of creating new fields of work (for humans, not robots), but also that untapped markets exist for specialized services. Everything that I predicted for the job market is already starting to happen.

*["new" in the sense that it taps a new market, or does something already done in a new way, not necessarily that no one has never thought of this job before ... "new" like my example of dog-sitters: something people may have already been doing, but not something that currently employs people on a large scale.]
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paywalled article.

Of course, the thing is that this type of thing probably won't ever employ people on a large scale.

The only way for everybody to benefit from the automation of the workforce is for us to get away from an economy of (false?) scarcity and somehow eliminate money entirely.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Av, no single job will employ everyone. Not manufacturing, not fast food order takers. But the same is true for automation: not every job can be automated.

Neither of us knows the exact numbers. We're talking about trends, changes that happen in response to an altering job landscape. And the changes are happening exactly as I expected. As I predicted, niche "luxury" services are becoming more popular as repetitive, low-skill, dehumanizing jobs are replaced by automation. This has happened in the past, it will happen in the future. People respond to automation now like they always have, by shifting to other kinds of work. Automation itself makes this possible by making certain goods/services cheaper, freeing up money for people to spend elsewhere ... like at specialty meat shops that have an interactive butcher who specializes in unique cuts and personal service, rather than walking into Walmart and buying whatever crap they have wrapped in plastic.

The rich aren't served by robots. As people have more disposable income, they seek out more personalized, labor-intensive services that focus on quality over quantity, uniqueness over mass-production, and style over speed. As automation makes things cheaper, more people will shift their buying in this direction, employing more people in these types of service industries as demand increases.

Avatar wrote:


The only way for everybody to benefit from the automation of the workforce is for us to get away from an economy of (false?) scarcity and somehow eliminate money entirely.

--A
I have no idea what you're saying. An economy of scarcity? Have you ever been inside an American supermarket? We are drowning in an ocean of cheap choices. Even people like Bernie Sanders bemoans the plethora of deodorant brands. What scarcity are you talking about? People now have more choices, more resources, than ever before in human history. Capitalism is the opposite of an "economy of scarcity." And automation will only accelerating the glut of cheap products/services. That's how everyone benefits from automation. Everyone has been reaping the benefits for more than half a century.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's just stipulate that Av has no idea what he's talking about.

As far as an "economy of scarcity", we've covered this. Diamonds are plentiful; other gemstones are not. But there's a cartel that promotes the idea that diamonds are something special, which is why they're so expensive. Many things (actual "things" and/or resources) are plentiful, but we believe they are not.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Av, no single job will employ everyone. Not manufacturing, not fast food order takers. But the same is true for automation: not every job can be automated.


Never said it could or will. Said this sort of thing will never employ people on a large scale. People have been doing it, and will carry on doing it, but it's not a meaningful contributor to employment levels overall.

Quote:
People respond to automation now like they always have, by shifting to other kinds of work. Automation itself makes this possible by making certain goods/services cheaper, freeing up money for people to spend elsewhere...

The rich aren't served by robots. As people have more disposable income, they seek out more personalized, labor-intensive services that focus on quality over quantity, uniqueness over mass-production, and style over speed. As automation makes things cheaper, more people will shift their buying in this direction, employing more people in these types of service industries as demand increases.


So...1,000 people lose their jobs because they've been automated away, but because burgers are now cheaper thanks to the automation, 100 rich people can afford to hire somebody just to make burgers for them? Smile (Obviously the example is a bit exaggerated, but that's the principle right?)

What about the other 900 people?

That's not to say that you're not right, (in the long run), but it's the very long run, and a lot of people will suffer before it makes enough of a difference that everybody is able to benefit.


Quote:

Avatar wrote:


The only way for everybody to benefit from the automation of the workforce is for us to get away from an economy of (false?) scarcity and somehow eliminate money entirely.


I have no idea what you're saying. An economy of scarcity? Have you ever been inside an American supermarket? We are drowning in an ocean of cheap choices.


Couple of points here. First, leaving aside Cail's habitual condescension, many things that we believe (or are told) are scarce are not, just as he says.

But more than that...you're drowning in an ocean of cheap choices, but according to feedingamerica.org, 1 in 8 Americans struggle to get enough food to eat. Yet, the US throws away as much as 40% of all harvested / prepared food every day.

If you reduced your food waste, you could give every person in your country 2,000 calories a day. But instead, people struggle to find enough to eat.

False scarcity. And I'm only talking about the US here. Lucky for you you have so many cheap choices. But when I said "everybody" to benefit, I meant everybody. Not just people who happen to have been born in the US.

The lowering cost of production is a great thing. In general. But all too often cheaper production mostly means bigger margins. Maybe there's a slightly reduced cost in there as well, but until we can produce things for effectively nothing, and give them away, the "benefits" are simply a matter of greater or lesser accessibility and scale.

We'll get there eventually. But a lot of people are are going to hurt worse in the growing pains of getting there. Yes, you're focusing on an end goal that probably will benefit everybody eventually, but I don't think we should forget, ignore or trivialise the suffering that will result on the way there.

--A
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