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Brexit - a quick resume of where we are.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes fair point .. I suppose .. politics is a dastardly business, and there are always agendas to be satisfied.

Pete I know how much this impacts on you .. it is your world that is potentially being altered by more devious machinations. But the UK will survive it .. no matter how it turns out. Will they be better for passing the Bill .. maybe not in the short term but possibly in the long term. You know isnt that one of the criticism of being part of the EU that you dont get a say in the rules that bind you. You havent moved very far away from the original criticisms.

An acceptable compromise will be reached. And come what may everyone will have someone to blame for what they deem was useless or bad management of the exit scenario.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I don't get is that if Brexit seemed like such a good idea to these guys - sufficient for them to go to the country with a raft of promises about how great it would all be- why, when they have the chance to derail May, get their own ideas back firmly on the agenda, do they not have the courage of their convictions and do so? I didn't vote for Brexit, but I went into the booth that day, even after having listened hard to all the arguments, having no real idea as to what was the best for the country in the long run. The Leave campaigners could have been right for all I know. But they won. They won. That's the point. Has their certainty now deserted them, that they will not take the chance to take the lead when the opportunity arises?. And if they now have cold feet about the whole idea, then why in God's name did they lead us down this path in the first place.
Now we have a situation where the Remainer's are not happy with what May is doing, the Brexiteer's are not happy with what she is doing - but both are prepared to vote to allow her to continue doing it for the simple expedient of getting it out of the way. And what is May doing; I don't know and I've been following every damn report and article since day one, the EU don't know and are begging for at least some degree of clarity to be introduced into the proceedings - hell, even her Chief negotiator David Davis doesn't know from one day to the next what is on the sgenda. The whole thing is being conducted behind closed doors and we are supposed to just take it on trust that what we will finish up with is to our best interest and in keeping with the spirit of what the Brexit referendum was all about. Yes Sky - we will survive this, but the chances are my grand -daughters generation will pay the price long after I'm gone in terms of life chances and prospects for their future.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No the majority that voted to leave .. are not really being given a voice as the voices are dominated by the House.

Whether they understood the scope of what they were voting for in leaving the EU who really knows. But the point is that its all entirely out of their hands.

And having the opportunity to slag off May for a job poorly done is an opportunity that these guys wont miss. The voting public dont have cold feet .. the reality of everything that is involved has given those in power .. maybe not cold feet .. but pause.

Yeah as to the rest .. fucked if I know .. its a dogs breakfast .. and youre right the effects will be lingering .. Im sorry that its all going to shit. But I do think that a balance will be struck one way or the other. And I do think that things will aright themselves in time.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[Big deep breath]

Ok peter - stop whining and get your shit together![slap's self on back]

What this is all about - today in parliament I mean - is that the Governments Withdrawal Bill has returned to the house with the 15 amendments added by the House of Lords to be voted on. The government wants the Bill to remain as it initially framed it, ie to reject the amendments and is pushing like hell for this to be the case. The key introductions that the Government most dislikes are 1] That MP's should be given a 'meaningful vote' on the final deal struck with the EU, to say yea or nay to it's acceptance. 2] That the talks should be directed toward bringing the UK into the EEA [see above, but essentially the Norway Deal where we stay in the Single Market and Customs Union] until an equally viable and satisfactory alternative is framed. 3]Giving MP's the power to stop the UK from leaving the EU without a deal 4] The Customs amendment which would force the Government to seek to stay in the/a Customs Union after leaving the EU.
These are the real 'red rags to a bull' to both hard Brexiteers and the Government - and it remains to be seen to what degree those deeply opposed to the amendments - or indeed deeply supportive of them - will rally their troops and their nerve when passing through the lobbies.

All will be revealed in the next day or two BUT at least one Tory misister has today thrown in his front bench towel and resigned. Phillip Lee, a junior Minister [of something or other] has resigned saying he can no longer in good conscience serve in a government who's handling of Brexit has been so detrimental to the countries best interest. it remains to be seen whether Lee [a staunch remainer] is acting alone or whether this could be the touch-paper that leads to a slew of coppy-cat resignations.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(((hugs Pete))))

Though I am wondering about this Phillip Lee fellow .. and wonder if he has an alterior motive to resigning. Maybe we will see more of him, challenging the May government?

I wouldnt give every MP a meaningful vote .. for gods sake youve seen how difficult it is to get something through the House .. its just an additional stumbling block to have to navigate. Though a veto power could be useful .. but how will the EU react to such a change of heart? Would they care?
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Last edited by Skyweir on Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is one of the points being made Sky; if the EU know that the final deal will be subject to veto by the house, it will make them drive for a different end result than if they think the government has carte blanch to strike the deal of its choosing. The meaningful vote amendment (which did not pass - but only after behind doors promises were made by May that she would make parliament more inclusive in the process) had, however, a further dimension; MP's did not like the idea that they might be faced with a simple choice between either a deal that they didn't like - or no deal at all. An amendment was tabled at the eleventh hour to require, in such circumstances, that the negotiating process be put back into the hands of parliament (where the Lord's think it should be) to decide the exit destination and to instruct the government to execute the decision accordingly. The argument against this is that it becomes unweildy in the extreme to negotiate with 650 people at your back - a legitimate concern ....... but equally legitimate must be the undesirability of Parliament being excluded from the single biggest set of decisions to affect the future of the country in the last half century. It seems to me that some kind of compromise must be reached on this - and indeed the Government are making noises that this will be so. They keep, against all the odds it seems, lurching from day to day, kicking cans down roads - but surviving and wriggling through. One commentator made the point dryly last night that this if is only parliament negotiating with itself what on earth will it be like when the real negotiations with the EU start!

Meanwhile today is the day for the all important customs union vote. It appears that May may have again staved of a possible defeat by concessions along the lines that government will report to parliament on its attempts to stay in a customs union. This satisfies remainders but flies in the face of leaver demands both inside and out the cabinet, that we leave such a union (on the basis that we cannot strike independent deals from inside) - and her much stated earlier policy that we are leaving both the single market and the customs union. Could still be tricky.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think none of this is going to be anything other than tricky 😬

Its like tricky central Hysterical
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yesterday's proposed amendment to the Withdrawal Bill - that the UK remain in the EEA post Brexit - was voted down in the House as MP's decided to support the government rather than the pro remaining Lords. Things were by all accounts pretty fractious and I'll need to listen to what the political commentary has to say before I can report on the significance of this (other than the obvious one that it is clearly more 'hard' than 'soft' Brexit oriented) - but to what extent it means that the government is out of the fire, however briefly, it is difficult to say.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wanted to ask, Peter, what was the turnout for the referendum? The GF was watching some awful British reality show, and was surprised to discover that most of the (20-something) people participating did not know what Brexit was.

When it was explained to them, they were horrified to learn it would curtail free movement around Europe (their hols doncha know), and were not even aware that a referendum on the topic had been held.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HAHAHA

I wager that most people even those who voted in the Brexit referendum .. had any clue about the implications of leaving the EU.

Sure thered be an educated core that did understand what it would mean .. but that doesnt surprise me at all.

Is voting mandatory Pete? If so from 18y?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turnout was pretty high - around seventy plus percent, which is a good bit higher than normally achieved in general elections. No - voting is not mandatory; the idea has been mooted [I think Aus has a mandatory voting system doesn't it?], but it's always been felt that not to vote should be a free choice in the same way as the choice to exercise your vote. It might be better to perhaps make it mandatory - but to include a box for indicating a 'protest non-vote'. Great story came out of the last election but one where a voter drew a penis in the box against his local Tory candidate - and they counted it as a vote in his favour! Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL

Hahahahaha .. thatll teach him to throw away his vote.

Yes voting is mandatory here .. and it was an emergency WWI or WWII initiative that was never rescinded. 🤷‍♀️

The requirement is to attend a polling booth, and get your name checked off. The idea is that if you can get people to attend to get their names checked off .. they will vote as well. But its a secret ballet so you can lodge an unmarked ballet or a marked ballet .. up to you. Though we do have 98 to 99 percent voting average .. so 1 to 2 percent may throw their vote.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes it's interesting that. We in the UK are always under the impression that ours is a secret vote - but a few elections ago I noticed that the woman who recorded my presence also noted against it the number which was on my ballot paper. This means of course that your vote can be traced back to you - as could the penis drawers artwork - because (iirc) spoiling your voting slip is a criminal offence (not that anyone is ever charged with it). This, again iirc, was the reason the woman gave me for her doing this.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It transpires that Theresa May's promise of a meaningful vote made behind closed doors to her (remainer) rebel MP's in order to get them to vote against a meaningful vote a couple of days ago had no meaning since the meaningful vote she hast since proposed turns out not to be meaningful at all. Confused - you should be! - because so are all the potential remainer rebels who were hoodwinked (or not) into supporting the amendment against the right to be able to vote to support or deny the final deal on exiting the EU. May's promise was that they would be allowed to vote on the final deal - she just didn't want the particular Lords amendment being voted on that day to pass. She promised to prepare forthwith an amendment to that effect and has done so - but the trouble is that her amendment only allows MP's to vote in approval or otherwise of the final deal, but has no provision that the government are bound by that vote. Rather it just states that it will be noted that the House has had a vote and what the result of the vote was, but that the government will act on this as it sees fit; in other words the vote is not 'meaningful' in the sense that it can change anything - and the rebels are pissed (apparently) about this. NB. I use parentheses above because it can no longer be known or trusted about who is voting or saying what for what reason in this shambles, and what is done can no longer be taken at face value in respect of its meaning. The rebels say that they will have their day when the bill 'ping-pongs' back to them in the Lower House again - but if past form is to be trusted on this ....then they are not!
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well of course she doesnt want to give MPs a "meaningful vote" .. it doesnt streamline the passing .. it complicates it further. MPs get there day .. theyve had it .. and from the sounds of it will have it again .. then thats it. Theyre fucked if shes going to give them an assurance of a further "meaningful vote".

Its ridiculous. They should just suck it up .. the system provides sufficient opportunity for comment and pushback .. obviously .. as it is ping ponging all over the joint 🙄

After all this hullabaloo .. ie back and forwards ALREADY .. they shouldnt get MORE opportunities to fuck it over again.

I dont know why Im a stay with the EU position .. but thats long gone it would seem now. I thought youd end up with a Brexit when your not having a Brexit .. but its clear that may not fly. So just get it done .. because this limbo isnt tenable.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am strongly against mandating voting. If you have a right to do something, you must have the concomitant right not to do it if you don't want to.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
Meanwhile today is the day for the all important customs union vote. It appears that May may have again staved of a possible defeat by concessions along the lines that government will report to parliament on its attempts to stay in a customs union. This satisfies remainders but flies in the face of leaver demands both inside and out the cabinet, that we leave such a union (on the basis that we cannot strike independent deals from inside) - and her much stated earlier policy that we are leaving both the single market and the customs union. Could still be tricky.


Sometimes peter, a picture really can tell a thousand words. Something those outside the UK may not have seen.


Daily Mirror 13th of June
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing Yes Luke! I saw that one at work and had a chuckle. Good post!
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose it is funny. Although when you add the 90 Labour MP's ignoring their chief whip, and the SNP members extraordinary walkout from the House, it's certainly farcical but also fascinating news.

... in light of the Mirror's cover story that is. Wink
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