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President Trump recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ugh not a RG fan myself .. at all

He will get brownie points from Trump though and no doubt the Israeli government for his criticisms of PA .. calling them thieves and terrorists .. which is unrestrained generalisation.

Hes just repeating the same old Trumpist rhetoric ... that Mueller is framing Trump .. cos he knows what will get him his boss's kudos.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

UN scheduled to hold emergency vote on Israel's use of force at the Gaza border

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UN General Assembly. Photo Credit: Wikimedia Commons


The Palestinian UN ambassador says his draft is almost entirely identical to the one submitted by Kuwait recently.


Following a request by the Palestinians earlier today (Saturday) to hold an emergency meeting at the UN's General Assembly over what they are calling "an excessive use of force" by Israel, the UN is scheduled to vote as early as this Wednesday on a resolution on Gaza that will condemn Israel.

On Friday, the United States vetoed a similar request made by Kuwait to condemn Israel's use of force against Palestinian civilians, which US Ambassador to the UN Nikki Haley called "grossly one-sided view" and failing to pin any responsibility on Hamas.

Palestinian UN Ambassador Riad Mansur said that Kuwait's resolution draft was "completely balanced" and stated that his draft will be almost entirely identical.

Danny Danon, Israel's permanent representative to the UN, reacted to the UN's decision to accept the request by saying: "Unfortunately, instead of condemning Hamas' terrorists, there are countries who seek to fulfill their internal political needs by hurting the Israeli state at the UN." He also added that "we are proud to protect our right and to protect the citizens of Israel at any forum in which our opposers seek to badmouth us."

[...]

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meh. What's going to happen? They'll vote to agree that Israel used excessive force, and Israel will say "What you gonna do?" And the UN will frown on it and at them, and nothing will actually change.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well they are indeed a toothless tiger .. but global censure is worth something
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Daily life stable after Jerusalem embassy fracas, Holy Land prelate says [In-Depth]

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The Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem Pierbattista Pizzaballa arrives at the Church of the Nativity, built atop the site where Christians believe Jesus Christ was born. (Credit: AP Photo/Majdi Mohammed.)


ROME -- While the controversial transfer of the U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem may have triggered a political and diplomatic hurricane, the top Catholic in the Holy Land says that in terms of daily life in the holy city, it's been little more than a soft spring rain.

"In terms of the practical details of ordinary life, not much has changed," said Archbishop Pierbattista Pizzaballa, the Apostolic Administrator of Jerusalem.

"Jerusalem is traditionally a meeting point and a bridge for dialogue between Israelis and Palestinians, and now all that is gone, which is probably the most dramatic effect [of the move]," he said.

"But I repeat, that's in terms of the political situation," he said. "At the level of daily life, things are basically unchanged."

[...]

It's certainly not that Pizzaballa is blind to the human toll of the anger and hopelessness the decision has spawned in some quarters.

"Once again, the lives of many young people are being snuffed out and hundreds of families are crying over their dead," he said, in a statement shortly after the embassy move happened. "One more time, in a sort of vicious circle, we find ourselves denouncing every form of violence, every cynical use of human life and disproportionate violence."

On Saturday, he was more direct in terms of the political results of the move, saying both it and the response it generated demonstrated that the model of a peace process embodied in the 1993 Oslo Accords between then-Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and both then-Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and then-Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres, all of whom would receive the 1994 Nobel Peace Prize, was over.

[...]

Asked if the idea of a two-state solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is now "impossible," Piazzaballa said "it remains the ideal."

"Obviously, dialogue is essential because the current situation cannot stand," he said. "But right now, it's hard to anticipate the what, how and when [of a new peace process], because now the parties are not only not dialoguing, there's no will to dialogue."

Pizzaballa also commented on long-running efforts to reach agreement between the Vatican and Israel on the legal and tax status of Church properties in the country, pursuant to a 1993 Fundamental Agreement between the two sides.

Ever since, a bilateral working commission has been attempting to work out a deal.

"At the moment, the churches are living in a sort of limbo," he said.

"We're still living under Ottoman law, but obviously the situation has changed since then," he said. "What we need is full citizenship from a legal point of view."

Pizzaballa said that a controversy earlier this year in which the storied Church of the Holy Sepulchre, where Christian tradition holds Christ was buried, was shut down during an attempted tax collection push by the Jerusalem Municipality, was a "flash point" illustrating the need for an agreement.

"It's not that the churches don't want to pay taxes," he said. "But it must happen under the law, not through unilateral edicts of municipal governments. We have to define an agreed-upon, rational process, to create a way for the Church to live."

[...]

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Well they are indeed a toothless tiger .. but global censure is worth something


Not really. When you don't care what other people think of you then you are free from such concerns.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Trump's G-7 Performance Suits Israel Just Fine [Opinion]

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Bibi is sticking with Trump. Photographer: AFP Contributor/AFP


The country and its leader is wary of a German-led European policy toward the Mideast.


How countries feel about the blow-up of the G-7 talks in Canada depends upon how they see the world and their place in it. Israel, for one, is not unhappy.

This has nothing to do with tariffs. ...

[...]

More concerning [than non-Israeli, Middle Eastern immigration to Germany and France] from Israel's perspective is Europe's consistent one-sided support for Palestinian nationalism, most recently displayed by the refusal of EU countries to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital, and the EU's ambassadorial snub of the inauguration of the U.S. embassy. EU leaders support an independent state of Palestine with East Jerusalem as its capital, though Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has made it clear that this is a non-starter. The most his government (or any conceivable government in the near future) is willing to give the Palestinians is a form of autonomy that leaves Israel in control of border security.

[...]

Divisions between the EU and the U.S.-Israel over Russia are also closely watched in Israel. At the G-7, Trump suggested re-admitting Moscow to the group. Israel doesn't really care if Russia is in or out of the club, but it has a keen interest in resolving the situation in Syria with Russian help. Any deal in Syria will require the agreement of both Putin and Trump, who are already engaged in a de facto redesign of the Middle East. Netanyahu, who has worked to build a degree of mutual respect with Russian President Vladimir Putin, is in a position to help broker a deal. The last thing he wants is for Europe to influence the remapping of the Middle East.

Looming over all these concerns is the question of the Iran nuclear program. The U.S. and Israel share the belief that nothing is more dangerous than a nuclear-armed and ballistic-capable Iranian theocracy. They see the Obama-negotiated deal as a sure path to disaster. The Europeans don't see the problem; and they believe that Trump's withdrawal from the deal has upset the rules-based international order that produced it.

[...]

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Skyweir wrote:
Well they are indeed a toothless tiger .. but global censure is worth something


Not really. When you don't care what other people think of you then you are free from such concerns.


Sky I wish they were not so toothless.
Hashi, too true.

I recently saw a national geographic clip of a centipede killing a snake. Never ever felt sorry for a snake before watching that. The snake, and centipede change regularly on the Gaza Strip.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are very right .. and its not justice .. but its something. And as a global community via the UN has condemned Israel. It at the very least puts it on the books and who knows when such actions will be required again.

Anyway .. lets be honest .. the US has a power of veto and they will likely veto any investigation .. which sucks turds. But what can any of us do? Nothing at all .. just watch and witness more atrocities.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Skyweir wrote:
Well they are indeed a toothless tiger .. but global censure is worth something


Not really. When you don't care what other people think of you then you are free from such concerns.


Agreed.

The simple truth is that without the threat of force to back it up, no rule, prescription, sanction or whatever is worth the paper it's printed on.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree. Though I wish the UN had teeth .. but if it actually did they would be restricted from using them.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whenever someone suggests that the UN should have teeth or the ability to enforce its decisions, the first question to ask is "will you still think the UN should have teeth when it is targeting *your* country?". If you (not you, personally, but the generic "you") aren't willing to have the UN invade your country, defeat your military, and possibly arrest your leaders before setting up their own government then don't wish that they had the ability to do it to a country with which you disagree.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And thats precisely the response that prevents the UN being given such a mandate.

LOL

And I completely agree .. and thereby follow the restrictions on the use of those teeth.

Its a catch 22 .. but some nations would support a global executive force even so.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would.

Skyweir wrote:
I disagree.


Really? What makes a law if not punitive consequences?

If something is against the law, but there is no punishment for breaking that law, then how do you enforce it?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its important for all nations not to be blacklisted .. if a country is censored there could be all sorts of implications .. it could affect their ability to receive foreign aide, or may result in trade restrictions.

The blacklisting issue is more of a reputational issue .. that does impact on how others will and do treat you. So it doesnt have to be use of force to have any effect at all.

In many ways these do constitute punitive implications .. but not as effective as use of force, or being taken to an International Court to answer for your illegal actions, I agree. But its better than nothing .. which is often interpreted as a condoning of actions. And that is not ideal in anyones books.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
I would.

Skyweir wrote:
I disagree.


Really? What makes a law if not punitive consequences?

If something is against the law, but there is no punishment for breaking that law, then how do you enforce it?

--A

Through sanctions agreed to by a body which is recognised by the majority.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And if everybody ignores the sanctions?

Anyway, y'all ramped that up way too quickly. I was talking about law. You know, like not killing somebody or whatever.

All law, in order to be effective, relies on the existence of men (and women) prepared to inflict violence on you if you do not follow it.

Without the threat of force, law is unenforceable.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL

"All law, in order to be effective" does NOT depend on humans prepared to inflict violence to enforce it.

Violence never has to be inflicted to enforce law. Its not how we enforce laws now. Here there is no longer capital punishment or corporal punishment .. and few countries in the West would be able to get away with inflicting violence on perpetrators of crimes, ie killing someone Wink

I guess my point is that force is not generally used to enforce civil or criminal laws period.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Force is used to enforce every law. Stop paying your taxes and see what happens.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are many types of force that are not 'violence' as such, and the State will always have recourse to these before physical violence/coercion is utilised; but when the chips are down I'm thinking that most states would be prepared to utilise their monopoly on the use of violence in order to 'have the last say'. [eg. If I refuse to pay my parking tickets I will be summoned to court. If I don't attend the Law will compel me to do so using [granted] the minimum force required to. If I resist and physical force is required, then it will be used - and no matter what level of force I use to resist, greater force will be applied to ensure my resistance is overcome. If I am killed in the process [because I have, say, resorted to arms in order to resist] then it will not be deemed that the State has committed a crime; rather that the crime was mine for my illegal resistance in the first place.

No?
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