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TheFallen
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Luci, of course I read Av's post before writing mine.

It's all very conveniently coincidental, n'est-ce pas? Especially the "comparing notes" session which was not a conversation just between mods and admins.

However, people may choose to promote whatever post-event revisionist historical version of things that they wish. Doesn't change what went on or why it went on, but hey, plausible deniability - such is life.
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Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" Rolling Eyes

Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them


"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
* I occasionally post things here because I am a fan of SRD.

This should not be considered as any condoning of the hypocritical, snowflake, bleeding heart, white guilt-ridden, compulsively virtue-signalling and totalitarian prog Left woke zealotry which some try to force upon this forum.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as I said, you will think what you think regardless of what we say so i'll not try to convince you that you are mistaken in those assumptions. i'll just say I hope we can all get along better and have some meaningful discourse.
I used to really enjoy the discussions in the tank and have learned some valuable things here from all of you, cail included.
_________________
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies



i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio



a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
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TheFallen
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll agree that it's pointless to maintain that this was obviously a concerted action orchestrated by a few.
lucimay wrote:
as I said, you will think what you think regardless of what we say...
"We" say, eh? Anyone would think you were being some sort of spokesperson, there, Luci...
_________________
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" Rolling Eyes

Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them


"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
* I occasionally post things here because I am a fan of SRD.

This should not be considered as any condoning of the hypocritical, snowflake, bleeding heart, white guilt-ridden, compulsively virtue-signalling and totalitarian prog Left woke zealotry which some try to force upon this forum.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
I'll agree that it's pointless to maintain that this was obviously a concerted action orchestrated by a few.
lucimay wrote:
as I said, you will think what you think regardless of what we say...
"We" say, eh? Anyone would think you were being some sort of spokesperson, there, Luci...



well I wasn't sure how to word it, whether I should speak for those besides me that have already said the same stuff as I said or not. I really only speak for myself...I don't think anybody would really want me as a spokesperson!! lol!!

I shall, from here on out, attempt to very carefully word my posts so as not to give the impression I speak for anyone but myself, TheFallen. promise.
_________________
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies



i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio



a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
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TheFallen
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might as well from now on in... after all, the box has been ticked, the objective achieved and the deed done. Getting back to nicey-nicey would seem easily doable now.
_________________
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" Rolling Eyes

Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them


"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
* I occasionally post things here because I am a fan of SRD.

This should not be considered as any condoning of the hypocritical, snowflake, bleeding heart, white guilt-ridden, compulsively virtue-signalling and totalitarian prog Left woke zealotry which some try to force upon this forum.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
Might as well from now on in... after all, the box has been ticked, the objective achieved and the deed done. Getting back to nicey-nicey would seem easily doable now.



ok. you can have the last word.
_________________
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies



i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio



a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
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TheFallen
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here it is.... thanks.
_________________
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" Rolling Eyes

Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them


"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
* I occasionally post things here because I am a fan of SRD.

This should not be considered as any condoning of the hypocritical, snowflake, bleeding heart, white guilt-ridden, compulsively virtue-signalling and totalitarian prog Left woke zealotry which some try to force upon this forum.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was no conspiracy. People didn't just "show up" to "gang up on Cail".

Everyone here has been a member of this Watch community for a long time.

Cail has been an asshole here for a long time. Fine guy I've met in real life, but certainly an asshole here.

It was Av's decision ultimately (since I am not present here much anymore and I don't feel I am in the position anymore to make such decisions), but I fully support it.

If anyone thinks anything nefarious of the people who ultimately had the courage to speak out about being sick of Cail and his shit, get over yourself.

This is their Watch too. And frankly we're all sick of the assholery.

-jay
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do want to say that I back up Avatar in all this. I know it must have been a tough call. Once a red line had been drawn, I respect that he didn't pull an Obama and change his mind. I would have drawn a different line, but that's another issue.

I do think Cail was too hard on Sky. I thought about telling him this on several occasions, mainly because she was one of the few on the other side who had the stamina and fortitude to continue the debate (I've bragged on her for this elsewhere prior to the current fiasco). I didn't want Cail to chase her away when there were so few people to argue against. The Tank gets boring when it's an echo chamber. But to her credit, Sky didn't leave! So I didn't see the need to say anything to Cail. From all appearances, it seemed that she was able to hold her own, and my respect for her went up after that. I think even Cail respected her for that, and he said so. Thus, I think his apology was sincere about the sheep fucking comment.

But now what am I supposed to think of my praise? Was it premature? Was I wrong? I don't know.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Except...

People who by their own public admission had in advance sat down and "compared notes" did just all of a sudden "show up" together after a massively long absence and did in tandem steam into Cail very publicly.

That is absolutely "just showing up" and premeditated "ganging up" by any standard (NB I am not commenting on whether such a thing was justified or not - but hell, let's not deny what it is).

I can't see how that can be seen as "courageous" in any way.

Be very clear - the above passes precisely no comment on whether it was right or wrong to ban Cail or not. The way it was achieved? That's a different thing.

I'll leave this be now, but fercrissakes, let's be adult enough to recognise a spade for what it is and call it such, eh?
_________________
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" Rolling Eyes

Shockingly, some people have claimed that I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them


"If you strike me down, I shall become far stronger than you can possibly imagine."
_______________________________________________
* I occasionally post things here because I am a fan of SRD.

This should not be considered as any condoning of the hypocritical, snowflake, bleeding heart, white guilt-ridden, compulsively virtue-signalling and totalitarian prog Left woke zealotry which some try to force upon this forum.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
I do want to say that I back up Avatar in all this. I know it must have been a tough call. Once a red line had been drawn, I respect that he didn't pull an Obama and change his mind. I would have drawn a different line, but that's another issue.

I do think Cail was too hard on Sky. I thought about telling him this on several occasions, mainly because she was one of the few on the other side who had the stamina and fortitude to continue the debate (I've bragged on her for this elsewhere prior to the current fiasco). I didn't want Cail to chase her away when there were so few people to argue against. The Tank gets boring when it's an echo chamber. But to her credit, Sky didn't leave! So I didn't see the need to say anything to Cail. From all appearances, it seemed that she was able to hold her own, and my respect for her went up after that. I think even Cail respected her for that, and he said so. Thus, I think his apology was sincere about the sheep fucking comment.

But now what am I supposed to think of my praise? Was it premature? Was I wrong? I don't know.



Avatar's decision was Avatar's decision. mods weighed in in the mod forum and it was a mixed opinion, very mixed. it didn't help him much in the decision making process. you'll just have to trust me on that. i would not lie to you about such a weighty thing. i'm telling you this because i respect what you've written here and i want to put your mind at ease a bit if i can. Skyweir is not a mod and thus was not in that discussion. everyone on the watch knows that cail and i did not get along so that was no news to anyone and thus my opinions carried little to no weight. what do they call that in medical insurance terms...preexisting condition. regarding his apologies to Sky, i too think that, in the moment they were given, they were sincere. the problem was it didn't take long for him to forget to censor himself and it would happen again.
Av's decision to ban was based on a long long history, not one incident.
as i said, i'm just responding to you on this because i respect how honest and forthright you've been. it's much appreciated.
_________________
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies



i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio



a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
However, people may choose to promote whatever post-event revisionist historical version of things that they wish. Doesn't change what went on or why it went on, but hey, plausible deniability - such is life.


I'm afraid that works both ways.

As has been mentioned, people will believe that which they choose (or that which suits their world-view / perception) and little or nothing will change that.

You (all) have only my word on the matter, and no particular reason to accept it.

Nonetheless, there was no cabal or conspiracy involved. And nobody got Cail banned.

I saw the originally quoted post on the day it was posted, and spent the next 24 hours deciding whether I would again let it slide in the face of my earlier request. Deciding otherwise I solicited the input of the mod team and Jay, and waited 24 hours to let people have their say.

Any external discussion happened outside of the ambit of that, off the forum, and did not include me. (I was unaware of it until I began to receive mod feedback.)

Active mods who had formed part of that discussion gave their own feedback, (as did non-participants) and explained that it was also informed by that discussion. All feedback, both in favour of, and against, my proposed decision, was considered and debated. (Hashi, unfortunately, and unbeknownst to anybody, was unavoidably absent from the Watch during this time.)

Then I decided to adhere to that decision and implemented it. That is, in a nutshell, how the "Council of Elders" functions (and has always functioned) on the Watch. Mod input, Admin decision.

This can be initiated by the request or complaint of a member, but is not always. In this case, the process was already under-way before anybody contacted me privately about it. Comments made publicly in the thread during intervening period were not taken into account. (Or actually seen, since I'd left immediately afterwards and didn't return until my request for feedback.)

You (all) may choose to believe this or not, that's up to you. Its veracity is impossible to verify, although people involved in the process can confirm at least some of it. (If anybody believed that. Smile

Like Luci, I hope that we can move forward with a renewed commitment to discuss even fraught or difficult topics with enough maturity and respect for our fellow posters to not have to resort to belittling, demeaning or insulting them.

I have always believed that nothing cannot be discussed and, if not accepted, at least understood, if people of good will come together to have those discussions. And I've always felt that more than anybody else, members of this forum should be able to do so.

But then, I'm an optimist. Wink

--A
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Call it what you will.

Even an effing moron like Trump would see this was the right call.

(Have to be fair and balanced with the stupid political metaphors.)

-jay
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevinswatch wrote:
There was no conspiracy. People didn't just "show up" to "gang up on Cail".



Sorry KW but the "coincidence" of having people who have not posted here for months show up when they did, not to post on-topic but to call out Cail specifically and to get a final word in before the ban says differently. Maybe not everyone was involved but someone got the word out that Cail was fixing to get banned or at least on the razors edge, and those that wanted to get a last dig in, did so.

I don't post as often as some and I don't have the time to be as thorough as I used to on my research. But this will stick with me for a while. I will choose (as everyone does) how much time I will continue to spend here going forward. Maybe I will get over it and you wont notice a difference. Maybe you will see very little from me in the coming months. That's just me.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's entirely up to you, and I understand.

I can't speak for anybody figuring out that a razor's edge was involved, but my part, and my decision, was as I described above.

Believe it or not.

(I think it would probably be best to split this into its own thread if we continue this way, since we are cluttering up this one.)

--A
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bet Mueller and Putin would both agree that banning Cail was the right decision, too.

-jay
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:


Sorry KW but the "coincidence" of having people who have not posted here for months show up when they did, not to post on-topic but to call out Cail specifically and to get a final word in


Another post that those already believing in conspiracy won't give a damn about, but here goes:
It may look like some conspiracy wrapped in fake coincidence to YOU...
But a much more accurate description is a bunch of people who have been watching but not participating noticed "Holy SHIT! Something might finally be done!"

AND---however that might "look" to you, or how much you THINK those people caused/influenced the result:
For MY part, and AFAICT without mind-reading abilities, every other Mod's part, MY decision was based ZERO percent on those peoples pressure/influence, and 100 percent on CAIL's words, on CAIL's actions, on CAIL's history, and the fact that no lesser persuasion/interaction had ever had any effect.

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Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair, there actually is a deep, underlying, hidden, secret Watch conspiracy that Av and I have been plotting for years, but so far none of you have come even close to identifying it. You fools. Hahaha.

-jay
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevinswatch wrote:
To be fair, there actually is a deep, underlying, hidden, secret Watch conspiracy that Av and I have been plotting for years, but so far none of you have come even close to identifying it. You fools. Hahaha.

-jay
That's what you think, but I have found the Emerald Chien!

Back on topic:

I ultimately think that various auxiliary people will be brought down by the Mueller investigation, but not Trump. This will have the effect of legitimizing his presidency, after all, what else could surviving a very thorough investigation mean? Any objection to that could be taken as a partisan attack, and in the future, we will have less public support for special investigations like these because between Mueller and Starr, these actions amount to political theater.

So Alan Dersowitz may have the last laugh, but he still won't have friends to drink expensive wines with at Martha's Vineyard, and isn't that the real tragedy?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevinswatch wrote:
To be fair, there actually is a deep, underlying, hidden, secret Watch conspiracy that Av and I have been plotting for years, but so far none of you have come even close to identifying it. You fools. Hahaha.

-jay


Are you sure?...?...I mean REALLY sure??...??...??
Next time all is quiet, and calm...
The sun is bright, the air warm, the sky clear and untroubled...
Breath deeply,
Slowly,
easily,
draw in the light with your breath...
feel it expand and release your chest,
your abdomen upper,
and,
sinking gently,
the lower,
let your eyes drift closed...
but allow Ajna, the third eye,
to open...
hear the still voice
through the root
from the earth
whisper...
...
...
...
who is watching The Watch...

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Spoiler:
Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.

the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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