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Zarathustra
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lucimay wrote:
well yeah...
"go fuck a sheep" MIGHT have been the "wrong thing to say"!! lol!!


He responded:

Cail wrote:
If you don't remember it, then I'll say it again. I apologize for telling you to fuck off, fuck yourself, fuck a sheep, or fuck anything else.


Cail wrote:
It's absolutely a genuine apology, no matter what your jaundiced worldview tells you. I have been very clear about the fact that I appreciate the fact that Sky's able to roll with the punches, act like an adult, and stay in the conversation. I think she's wrong about many things, but she has my respect for sticking with it.


Cail wrote:
Not once has Sky PMd me to tell me to lay off. In fact, she's PMd me to compliment my writing. I have stepped over the line, and edited and apologized when I've done so. I've just issued a blanket apology just in case I've missed one.


Cail wrote:
Sky, if you have a problem with me, my PM box has space. My apology has been issued in public, and I'll happily and humbly do the same via PM.


Cail wrote:
Finally Sky, I've apologized. You can accept that or not accept that. The apology was offered sincerely. . . . If there are times that I'm less than tactful, they're not intentional, and all it takes is a quick PM....


lucimay wrote:
Ali didn't show up to get him banned, and neither did i. but i know those of you who think we did will think what you think regardless of what we say.


I think what gives people this impression is this:

Aliantha wrote:
TBH, I'm here right now because Sky, lucimay, and I spent some time earlier today comparing notes. We've all been targeted by you, and it needs to stop.

Hashi?
She says outright that this is why she is here. That was her purpose, to "stop it." And then when Vraith admits lots of people were watching and thought, "Holy shit, something might finally be done," I think the meaning is clear. "Stop it" meant "ban." So I think people were watching and, reminding each other of Av's red line, thought this was finally their chance to silence Cail permanently. And then Av's hands were tied, because he drew the red line, allowing one word, "tosser," to be enough. [I didn't even know what the word meant, had to look it up. Apparently, it's on the level of calling someone a jerk. Pretty tame, in other words. ]

But it's clear that this was just a pretext, because no one even complained about it. What Sky did complain about included things that weren't even insults:

Skyweir wrote:

Ive been told . . . that my views are immaterial, . . . that Im . . . wrong, uniformed etc . . the list continues, does it not?


As I've said, I think Cail was too hard on her. But the complaints against him go way beyond the "go fuck a sheep" variety--for which he apologized profusely--into things that are perfectly innocent and legitimate, like, "you're wrong." Rolling Eyes

I know this post isn't going to change anything. I know that there's a long history here. But just before that history ended, Cail apologized at least 5 times. It seemed that we might be at a turning point. Then the hammer came down after people started "comparing notes" and lurkers became lynchers, and one silly word could damn a person.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry Z, we've been at turning points before, and some lasted longer than this. (I understand you realise the history, and that (and that line) is really the crux of it for me.)

Done is done. I believe it was the right decision for a variety of reasons, and I stand by it.

Y'all are free to believe (and say) anything you like about it, and I understand. All of these implications and potential impacts were part of my decision-making process.

--A
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
And then when Vraith admits lots of people were watching and thought, "Holy shit, something might finally be done," I think the meaning is clear. "Stop it" meant "ban."


That is a complete misreading of that particular part of what I said, and ignores other information here that preceded it and followed it.

You think your post won't change anything?
That's very likely true.
And it shouldn't, because your description and the resulting meaning you draw from it is both incomplete and incorrect.
But this post, nor the previous, and nothing I say...nor the others actually involved in the decision/debate...will alter your view.
Those who seem to thing some injustice was done here are simply mistaken.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been outside watching. I didn't participate in any "get together".
Personal attacks amounts to bullying.
Defending arguments is one thing, but fighting bullies set on repeat gets boring and does nothing for me.
I am sorry to see no Cail here and I hope he is okay, but the bullying volume was way too loud. The way he got after particular people meant I just didn't see the point of contributing.
Words like classy and chivalry just got steamrolled and segued.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You and several others are no doubt unwittingly misframing the issue that several of us here have, Vraith.

Yes, Cail had been clearly warned by Av recently - rightly or wrongly, Av drew his line in the sand. His call to make.

Yes, in Av's consideration, Cail's throwaway "tosser" comment on 29/1 was in Av's opinion the straw that broke the camel's back and presumably why he decided to consult with other mods and admins, before enacting the ban.

I'm sure that the forum admins on here voted as they saw most fit. No conspiracy theory there.

People may agree or disagree with the placement of that line in the sand and/or the subsequent process and/or the resultant ban - but that's the nature of a moderated forum.

None of the above is distasteful.

What absolutely *is* distasteful is the sudden appearance of two other mods, who have by their own admission been "comparing notes" beforehand, diving in 24 hours later after Tossergate to - and I'll use the direct expression of one of them - "crap all over Cail" and "stop" him. Zee and SB have got that spot on - and frankly it's obvious as to what is intended.

Maybe the decision hadn't been made by then and they were looking to incite more reaction from Cail. Or maybe the decision had been made by that point and it was simply a matter of getting in a few last gloating swings before the ban was imposed.

It matters not. It was oh so blatantly the exercising of personal and very obviously historical grievances, it was premeditated and co-ordinated aggression. And these people are mods elsewhere???

But not of the Tank, though. The Tank's got a resident mod - and a much present admin too. What business was it of these two to come steaming in to take their cheap shots?

And for the record, whether deliberateiy inciting or deliberately score-settling, this was pure tagteam cowardice, not courage, no matter how they attempt to dress it up post-event. And it's equally shameful and disingenuous that they're brazen enough to attempt such dissimulation. Nobody's fooled.

THAT is where the issue obviously lies, not in some alleged leftist censorious cabal amongst the KW admins.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To all the mods. Its well within your rights as mod to ban who you will. Cail had been over the top of late but I thought it was give and take between he and Sky. I think a temporary ban might have been enough but it was not my decision to make. I believe that AV and others are being honest when they say that this was not a decision made lightly and I understand that maybe there was more to this than I am aware of.

As to the rest. Someone had inside info that he was going to get banned and it got out. You can deny if you will but the "hens" didn't just happen to show up when they did by accident.

Outside of that, Ali, Luci and Sky, I have no respect for that kind of behavior. Its petty as hell. So let me be the very clear and be the very next to call all of you "Tossers" although as I look up the term "Wanker" might be closer to the term I truly mean.

Feel free to send me my first warning for being disrespectful to others on the watch. I will continue to post here and to do so respectfully but I wanted all three to know exactly what my feelings are on this. You came here purposely to gang up on Cail and to see the hammer strike. BAH and BAH again!!!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and that deserves a standing ovation.

Yep, the three of you were oh so clearly colluding and deliberately co-ordinated..

Petty, purely personally motivated, points-scoring and pathetic. Sounds like a real bunch of tossers to me too. And yes "wankers" would work just as well - as would "small-minded, grudge-bearing conniving jerks", for that matter.
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Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" Rolling Eyes

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This should not be considered as any condoning of the hypocritical, snowflake, bleeding heart, white guilt-ridden, compulsively virtue-signalling and totalitarian prog Left woke zealotry which some try to force upon this forum.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Z are you of the opinion that because I failed to cite each actual insult that it is therefore proof of conspiracy?

You might want to gear down with your unfounded accusations.... all of you 🙄 .. if chatting or bitching with friends was evidence of collusion, Mueller would have a slam dunk.


But in response to your allegations ... do I enjoy being insulted, demeaned, vilified or silenced? Fuck no, I dont. Do you?

Did I put up with it? Fuck no. I stood my ground.

I am perfectly capable of defending myself and arguing whatever I believe MYSELF. Also pretty confident I cannot be silenced, at all, ever.

I can take care of MYSELF just fine, thanks.

This was not about me. I can take care of me.

But god it would be lovely if it was tbh. That someone had my back. Im only human .. Id have loved someone to step up at some point over the last year or two. But that was rarely in my case, ever a reality. Yes some did, and Im grateful over that time for SD, whod occasionally weigh in, V did a while back, even Ali and Luci a while back. That was nice. But I didnt have a wing man

I flew solo .. knowing full well I was flying solo.

And for your information Cail and I did pm the other day. Since Cail asked me to. I thought it fair and reasonable to. We were frank and clear with each another and I think mutually respectful of one another whilst retaining our established disparate political and personal views.

Is this truly and honestly a surprise?

This is solely about Cail. His behaviour. Not just with me ... apparently it has gradually worsened over the past decade. A time I was not here.

So have no direct input ... but I am aware that there are others that were here during that time. Some still active members, most not.

Av and Jay are right this IS a community. And its their function to ensure it runs well.

Again its a hard call for anyone person to make. Do you honestly believe Av would make such a call lightly, unfairly or unreasonably?

I dont.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[Syl] wrote:
And no, Hashi wasn't present for the decision, but that's because, apparently, he was otherwise occupied with RL stuff. It happens.


Precisely. In fact, I was out all day today, zooming around the Metroplex from place to place because I lumped all the face-to-face interviews on the same day.

I don't have a problem with the decision. That being said, it would be wise to stop talking about why it happened and get back to the subject at hand.


Avatar wrote:
(I think it would probably be best to split this into its own thread if we continue this way, since we are cluttering up this one.)

--A


I concur. Later this evening--or perhaps in the middle of the night--I will split out the posts about the ban and make them their own separate thread. I don't know yet if I will lock it. We'll see how it goes.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'll hold off on my response till then Hashi.
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Vraith
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
and I'll use the direct expression of one of them - "crap all over Cail"

no matter how they attempt to dress it up post-event. And it's equally shameful and disingenuous that they're brazen enough to attempt such dissimulation. Nobody's fooled.



Fun fact on the first: that "direct expression" you cite was actually A QUOTE OF CAIL's words...an accusation HE made, that she was responding to.

Fun fact on the second: Just in case you were correct, I went and checked time-stamps.
Whatever you want to think about the swooping in and dissimulation...the time-stamps show Sky was already here [duh] but also Ali was already here and engaged with Cail BEFORE Av even mentioned the problem.

But even if all that wasn't so...
Is it really your, and the others, real concern that 3 women who were often targeted over a very long period of time charged in and took victory lap posts/cheap shots?
Even if that were true [[and it sure as fuck doesn't look like it to me...it looks much more like people who FINALLY got some support, and voices being HEARD.]]
Even if that were TRUE, y'all'd be being fairly wrong-headed.
""I don't hold with a man abusing his wife and kids...but did the wanky tossers have to key his Camaro, and spoil that paintjob? He was already leaving.""

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the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

V - If you think you are making anything better you are fooling yourself. Your responses only cements the facts that we already know. There is no coincidence here. But hey, just keeping throwing fuel on the fire!!! Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
The Tank's got a resident mod - and a much present admin too. What business was it of these two to come steaming in to take their cheap shots?

Because it's our Watch, too.

You're seeing a flood of long-absent Watchers return *precisely* because the situation in the Tank had grown so toxic over the years that people were leaving the Watch in droves. You guys have had your own little bubble in here for *years*. Every time a liberal comes in and makes a comment, it's open season. Poor Sky got so much flak from Cail precisely because she stuck around. She's one of the original KW members from the EZ Board days -- as am I. Sky *started* the Tank -- did you know that?

Y'all are gonna believe what you want to believe. Whatever. But the cabalistic conspiracy you guys are dreaming up was nothing more than several Watchers, most of whom had drifted away, getting together in a group chat to find out we all felt the same way about what had been happening here. Cail's cheap shots at Sky gave us hope that something might finally be done -- that we might be able, at last, to reinstate civility here in the Tank.

If Watchers getting together to ask the admins for civility and respect constitutes a conspiracy, then I guess I'm guilty. But treating people with respect strikes me as a hill worth dying on.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aliantha wrote:
TheFallen wrote:
The Tank's got a resident mod - and a much present admin too. What business was it of these two to come steaming in to take their cheap shots?

But the cabalistic conspiracy you guys are dreaming up was nothing more than several Watchers, most of whom had drifted away, getting together in a group chat


And then showing up to take a last cheap shot while Cail was on the way out and to see it happen. Yes very adult of you. Very civil. Very petty.

Pot meet Kettle.

Your so called defense is laughable. You are no better than what you rail against.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:
V - If you think you are making anything better you are fooling yourself. Your responses only cements the facts that we already know. There is no coincidence here. But hey, just keeping throwing fuel on the fire!!! Twisted Evil


If you say so.
But there's only one timeline of events.
And at least two [maybe 3 or more...I can't really tell] "coincidence? I think NOT" "plots."

The events as they happened don't match the supposed conspiratorials.
Things happen, people know about it, people know each other, other things happen...no freaking plans or plotting are necessary. And none of the ones people are talking about happened.

Go ahead and feel like there were a bunch of cheap shots.
I don't think so.
And even if I did, I probably wouldn't care...cuz few ever showed concern or stood up when they were the targets.


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the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for those who either may not have read all the relevant threads or whose memory may not have retained the detail, could someone link or quote (with timestamps) these alleged 11th hour cheap-shot posts?

That's a relatively strong thing to assert. The exchanges that occasioned Cail's ban were pretty abundantly cited. Can we please hold these counter-allegations to the same standard?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:
aliantha wrote:
TheFallen wrote:
The Tank's got a resident mod - and a much present admin too. What business was it of these two to come steaming in to take their cheap shots?

But the cabalistic conspiracy you guys are dreaming up was nothing more than several Watchers, most of whom had drifted away, getting together in a group chat


And then showing up to take a last cheap shot...

I didn't have to look very far to find something in one of Cail's posts to object to. The very first one of his I read was his alleged apology to Sky. C'mon, show of hands -- how many of you guys thought when you read that post of Cail's that he'd pwned Sky?

I too would like one of you guys to construct a timeline with timestamps of the posts that prove your point.

And isn't it interesting that y'all are howling because three *women* stood up to a bunch of *men*? Huh. I wonder what *that's* all about...
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This attacking has got to stop. Its stupid at best and .... hello pot ... petty as hell.

Its hypocritical and ridiculous.

As Av clearly explained this was not a course he wanted.

If I was Av or Jay, Id prefer all Watchers to interact civilly. The Watch, I dont know who .. cant remember established a standard of conduct that all new members casually sign up to.

Very common with forums like this.

Quite honestly, do you react like this to every difficult admin decision?

Did you all react like this when Esmer was banned? Or Lord Foul? How did they fuck up? What was the issue with Cail? What did he do, when did he do it? How many times did he do it? Was he warned? Did he comply with warnings? Did he comply with requests to pull his head in?

I said somewhere .. to Cail .. that Id had a gut full. I had.

I get it .. its YOUR buddy.

Id rather Cail HAD self moderated. Had chosen civility. Had cared about how he treats fellow Watchers. I believe many would have preferred that. But HE chose otherwise.

Id prefer, as Im sure many do, to have his presence .. with him moderating himself. It is clear that HE chose otherwise.

Cail as an adult made his choices.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So after months of absence, having Ali, Luci and Sky (well sky I can believe as she is on every thread these days) show up to post on the exact thread that Cail gets banned on in the tank, and we are all to believe that this is amsome random coincidence?

Not buying. But I can let this thread go if you can.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since you all are somehow still arguing about this, I'll end this here and get the final word. Because it's my effing board.

Cail was banned because he was an asshole and I'm pretty sure everyone is in agreement of that.

For those of you who are attacking the victims of Cail's assholery for the last 10+ years, you're missing the point.

The point is to not be an asshole and treat everyone here with respect.

If you have a problem with that, feel free to leave.

And Hashi, I do sincerely apologize that this all had to happen in your forum while you had more important obligations to worry about this shit. You're a good mod and all of this is not worth your time.

Locked. I'll split this topic once I remember how to split topics. Heh.

-jay
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