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Rebooting the Gun Control Discussion
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Orlion wrote:
In which a bartender is arrested for serving alcohol to someone before they killed eight people.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/05/06/drunk-man-went-killing-spree-police-just-arrested-bartender-who-served-him/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.c1ec898e4e44


This case is more important than you might initially realize. If prosecutors are able to successfully argue that the bartender is criminally negligent and/or liable for the shooting, then the next logical step is "gun manufacturers are criminally negligent and/or liable for supplying the guns". The other slippery slope there would be for someone to be found guilty for something they did not dothe bartender did not shoot anyone.


I am not sure such a slippery slope is a credible concern.

I might be 😉 over simplifying things myself but I find it highly unlikely a bar tender who sells a drink to a dude that walks into his bar could EVER be causally complicit in his unknown future crime.

I mean reasonableness has to be satisfied.. and thats quite a long bow to draw imo.

If a bartender knew that the man he served a drink to was intending to go to a school and kill a bunch of people AND he knew he had the means to do so .. well thats a very different set of circumstances.

In the article Orlion linked the circumstances of the arrest were somewhat different.

Quote:
Commission issued a report concluding that Glass violated the Sale to Certain Persons law by serving Hight, whose blood alcohol level was four times the states legal limit when he drove to his ex-wife's house, according to NBC Dallas Fort Worth.

Under the Texas law, a person is guilty of the offense if he or she negligently ... sells an alcoholic beverage to an habitual drunkard or an intoxicated or insane person.


In this case the bartender broke a law he would know he had to comply with .. despite ignorance of the law being no excuse. Such details would assumedly be covered in training required to dispense alcohol.

You know them .. cant supply alcohol to minors etc .. this Texas law is no different.

I agree that if these facts ARE accurate .. he sold this guy alcohol knowing how pissed he was .. he saw him brandishing a weapon etc .. its not unreasonable that the bar tender could have picked up on some big red flags that may indicate his negligence.

To take these particular facts and raise the argument that THIS means that in circumstances not at all similar similar charge would be relevant .. ignores how the law works.

The only circumstances in which this may apply is where perhaps another bartender in Texas breaches the Sale of Alcohol Act .. and the guy he served alcohol to, acts in such a way as to raise the same concerning red flags .. ie waving a firearm around ... such actions that would alert an ordinary person .. that this guy should be cut off .. and he instead supplies him with more alcohol.... then clearly he will be charged with breaking the Sale of Alcohol Act .. not being complicit in the future crimes the guy perpetrates.,
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Id love to see firearms manufacturers considered as complicit in firearms violence.

And yeah bring it on 🤷‍♀️ unleash your ire at my wish.

I think suppliers of weapons ie the means of causing grievous civil harms should support appropriate standards of sale, storage, training and appropriate use.

But many lobby against appropriate standards, safeguards and controls.

And the whole slippery slope argument raised is purely fear mongering. Which firearms manufacturers and lobbyists are very good at.
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree Sky. Let's charge companies anytime someone does something illegal with their products. Cars, guns, knives, baseball bats, over the counter meds, alcohol. We can sue every company out of existence.
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

She, Skyweir! The bartender arrested was a woman.

There is some sort of angle here, I'm not sure what it is. I will probably want to look into where the law came from, since it seems like the law (by text, anyways) is not related to gun violence. I imagine it could have been implemented more to deal with drunk driving.

There is just the issue of enforcement: when and how is it enforced? Is it pretty much an afterthought after something tragic occurs, like say a car accident that kills a young family? Is the law enforced as a means of punishing the bartender for those tragedies when folks just want to take vengeance on whatever they can?

Particularly in this case, where the shooter was killed at the scene so won't be "brought to justice" (though getting put down like the mad dog that he was should certainly count as "just")?

And doesn't this law affect the working bartender more than the bar owner? The bartender probably needs that job and can't afford to lose it, they can be pressured by the bar owner to just "sell, sell, sell!" and even though it could be the bar owner pushing for the practice of breaking the law, it is the bartender that suffers the consequences. I feel that a more even-handed law should include penalties on the establishment itself, make sure it has a stake in following the law.

The plausible slippery slope I see here does not have to do with Texas law. That is all ready defined if generally unenforced. What I see happening is that folks in other states might look at this case and think, "huh...maybe we can do something similar that effectively bans (whatever type) guns without explicitly banning them! This isn't a cheap, evil political trick like the six-week abortion ban, it's different and for the children!"

So we will see more pushes for licenses to own guns and operate guns, maybe that dumb insurance idea that was suggested a few years back will return, having the cops called on you because you were shouting will prevent you from getting gun (I hear this is a thing in Georgia?), if you seek help for depression, you'll be banned from owning a gun because "mental illnesses lead to gun violence, derp!" and there will be a process to get back after your treatment for depression, but it will be convoluted and tedious with follow ups and...

All of this would lead, of course, to a constitutional crisis. Because if there is one thing missing when people talk about implement "whatever" gun control, it's the acknowledgement that it is messy in the legal sense because unlike health care, car ownership, etc. gun ownership is a constitutional right. So, all ready we see why we can't "just do what New Zealand and Australia do" without looking at whether or not it would be effective. Doing what they do would be breaking the fundamental framework of the US government which, I've been led to believe, would be bad.

You think Trump is causing constitutional crisis? Ignoring/not enforcing the Second Amendment would be a much more explicit constitutional crisis.

My position on the matter has not changed much, even if my reasoning has changed. Current gun control laws should be enforced. Like, actually enforced. This should be informed by legal precedent, like that...2008? Supreme Court Decision which pretty much defined what the Second Amendment means now and what arms citizens have the right to.

Something else I need to work on is to not harp on gun nuts so much. As nutty as they are, I do not think they have perpetrated a single mass-reported mass shooting. At the same time, these gun nuts need to realize that their paranoid fantasies of the gummit and how they as gun owners have a responsibility to keep them in check are not based in law and should not be the basis of law.

Children should have more of a firearms education/training. It would be responsibly carried out, so calm down. No one would have it at the school, the guns would probably be something like a .22 rifle (I think that's what my Boy Scout Camp used) and would focus extensively on gun safety. There's a mysticism surrounding guns that I feel is very dangerous and could be easily dispelled through minimal education.

And I think I'll end this rambling post here.
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The pertinent Texas statute may be found here.

Quote:
Sec. 101.63. SALE TO CERTAIN PERSONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person with criminal negligence sells an alcoholic beverage to an habitual drunkard or an intoxicated or insane person.

(b) Except as provided in Subsection (c) of this section, a violation of this section is a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not less than $100 nor more than $500, by confinement in jail for not more than one year, or by both.

(c) If a person has been previously convicted of a violation of this section or of Section 106.03 of this code, a violation is a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $1,000, by confinement in jail for not more than one year, or by both.


Apparently the bartender knew the guy, so prosecutors could make the case that she knew whether or not he was a "habitual drunkard"--comes in every weekend and gets wasted, etc. The adjective "intoxicated" will be different for every person based on drinks imbibed and personal tolerance level; this guy is dead so there is no way to test his tolerance. The bartender is not a psychologist and therefore cannot determine of a random customer is "insane"--playing around with a knife in a bar is odd behavior, to be certain, but not outside the realm of other odd behaviors which occur in bars and is not indicative, in and of itself, of any malicious intent.

The only reason the bartender got arrested is because the grieving family wanted somone to be held accountable and a sympathetic prosecutor agreed. Recall that these events happened almost 2 years ago--that bar isn't even open any more.


Skyweir wrote:
Id love to see firearms manufacturers considered as complicit in firearms violence.


I take comfort in the knowledge that you will never see this particular wish fulfilled.

sgt.null wrote:
I agree Sky. Let's charge companies anytime someone does something illegal with their products. Cars, guns, knives, baseball bats, over the counter meds, alcohol. We can sue every company out of existence.


Although consumer protection regulations are a good thing, I have no doubt that "suing corporations out of existence" is a dream of the Fringe Left.
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the statutes, Hashi! Looks like some form of that law was in effect since 1977 with the latest version coming into effect in 2003, so I think we can plausibly assume it's not a stealth Democratic law aimed at getting rid of gun ownership.

I do think the situation is closer to your interpretation: the family wants someone to pay/"closure"/some other form of asinine concept that does not include dealing with the tragedy in a healthy way; but also that the police want to wipe some egg from their faces. "See, we did nothing wrong, it was the bartender's fault!" They'll then happily accept the 500 dollars and go about their business.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:

Although consumer protection regulations are a good thing, I have no doubt that "suing corporations out of existence" is a dream of the Fringe Left.


Particularly the anarchist and communist portion of that fringe.
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Id love to see firearms manufacturers considered as complicit in firearms violence.

And yeah bring it on 🤷‍♀️ unleash your ire at my wish.

I think suppliers of weapons ie the means of causing grievous civil harms should support appropriate standards of sale, storage, training and appropriate use.

But many lobby against appropriate standards, safeguards and controls.

And the whole slippery slope argument raised is purely fear mongering. Which firearms manufacturers and lobbyists are very good at.


I'm in favour of appropriate standards, safeguards and controls. But to make the manufacturers liable for firearms violence is crazy.

What's the difference then between that and suing vehicle manufacturers for people killed by the cars they make? Or suing the maker of a hammer because somebody bashed in somebody else's skull with it?

What you do with the tool I make or supply is your responsibility, not mine.

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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:

sgt.null wrote:
I agree Sky. Let's charge companies anytime someone does something illegal with their products. Cars, guns, knives, baseball bats, over the counter meds, alcohol. We can sue every company out of existence.


Although consumer protection regulations are a good thing, I have no doubt that "suing corporations out of existence" is a dream of the Fringe Left.


But..that's a far-right conspiracy theory!
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not all conspiracy theories are false. It doesn't matter, though, since the Fringe Left will never get what it wants.

Schools are simply not safe. The high school Liebeschoen used to attend was originally designed to be a community college campus--it is so open and has so many soft entrances that trying to "harden" that campus would be incredibly cost-inefficient. These students and parents need to grow up and start living in the *real* world--if you are not ready for an attack then you are already victim.

Gun-wielding attackers *love* anti-gun sentiment and legislation, as well as "gun-free zones" because that gives them plenty of potential victims who are under the false impression that they are "safe".

Just wait until an attacker decides to improve their tactics. Don't hit the school--those targets are becoming more secure; instead, wait until a bus has been fully loaded then attack that. Buses dutifully stop at every red light, stop sign, and set of railroad tracks; those windows are not hardened, either, so if you shoot them out you can get the door open and locate your victims. No secure areas, no safety officers, nowhere to hide.

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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorta like the first " Dirty Harry " movie...

He had a gun.. So did Harry...

Which one do you sue for the weapon manufactured?
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orlion - I could not find a documented case
Of a law abiding NRA member going on a
Mass shooting spree. And .most gun deaths
Aren't coming from there. Suicides and inner
City crimes are the vast majority.
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats a good point Av 🤔
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Avatar wrote:
[...]

What you do with the tool I make or supply is your responsibility, not mine.

[...]


🎼🎵 "Once ze rockets are up,
who cares vere zey come down?
Zat's not my department,"
says Wernher von Braun. 🎶🎵


Tom Lehrer - Wernher von Braun [YouTube: 1.5 min]

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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sgt.null wrote:
Orlion - I could not find a documented case
Of a law abiding NRA member going on a
Mass shooting spree. And .most gun deaths
Aren't coming from there. Suicides and inner
City crimes are the vast majority.


Thanks for the verification. The closest similar statistic I had before was that no mass shootings where committed with guns that were made and unregistered, it's not too far of a stretch to find it plausible that the NRA member would also not go on a mass shooting spree (I left out the "law-abiding" part because if they are "law-abiding", it naturally follows that they are not going on mass shooting sprees Wink )

And you are correct that most deaths are due to suicides (almost half, the last time I checked, with a standard deviation of "could actually be the majority of gun deaths). Cities in general have higher crime rates because of their characteristics, I leave "inner" out because it is not much of a distinction.

Which gets back to my point a few pages back: the anger on the left is not gun deaths caused by gang related violence, which has occurred for decades now with not much more than a nominal peep. It's those incidents that take place at a 1950s style locale of the white-American dream. It's more resentment at how "it shouldn't happen here", that expectation being the result of implicit racism. The expectation is there because they believe they ought to be free of such violence because their communities do not have "black, inner-city thugs".

Because of that (at least in part) there is a disconnect between the well-to-do, white Leftists and the black Leftists on the topic of gun control. For decades, the black Leftists have been and continue to rely on Second Amendment rights to afford themselves some protection in the high crime areas they find themselves in.

In summary, the push for "more gun control" on the Left, particularly the call to ban guns (in general or in particular) are, in my opinion, a manifestation of what the youth call white privilege.
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orlion wrote:
Which gets back to my point a few pages back: the anger on the left is not gun deaths caused by gang related violence, which has occurred for decades now with not much more than a nominal peep. It's those incidents that take place at a 1950s style locale of the white-American dream. It's more resentment at how "it shouldn't happen here", that expectation being the result of implicit racism. The expectation is there because they believe they ought to be free of such violence because their communities do not have "black, inner-city thugs".


I really like your take on this because it helps to highlight the racism many on The Left have. Democrats think that black people are somehow simply not able to take care of themselves, which is why have been telling black people that they *need* the Nanny State for decades. Bottom line, the way Democrats speak to black people boils down to "if it weren't for us you would still be in the fields or on the back of the bus".

Of course, most black people forget that Democrats were the ones who initially created Jim Crow laws as a push back against Reconstruction, as well as being the ones who founded such organizations as the KKK.....

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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no moral advantage to applying studies of racial inequality to just one's political opponents. If one does not apply the same reasoning to honest introspection, you are not minimizing inequality or seeking justice: you are weaponizing an oppressed minority's history of suffering for personal aggrandizement.

That's the result, anyway. Many will say that they do not intend it, but intent does not mean much.

I'll have to see if I can find the Bill Maher video, but one of his guests had an interesting thing to say about how blacks approach politics. It is a (understandably) cynical view, but it boils down to not believing a politician has your interests in heart and vote for the one that is most likely to do something beneficial for them.

But that's a tangent, I'll post the video in an appropriate thread if I find it.
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

🤔 .. well explained Orlion. I dont think I fully appreciated what you were saying. That IS interesting.

Im not entirely convinced its absolutely correct however.

Firearms equate to firearms deaths ... not 100 percent of firearms will result in human fatalities. But yes many deaths and even injuries are caused by suicide attempts and successes and accidental shootings.

None of that detracts from the issue of child deaths as a result of weekly school shootings though.

But these form part of the current issue with mass shootings, of which school shootings are a part.

Ok lets say you are right it is highlighted because of white privilege balking at atrocities occurring in white schools.

What of shootings at Jewish synagogues, black churches?

I dont think the left are soo short sighted that they do not see the problem as a firearms regulation issue.

I think we lose sight of the cause of mass shootings. The shooters, right?

Theres the psychology which is interesting but there IS ALSO firearms access.

But its more than relative ease of access, its non mandated training, in appropriate and safe weapons handling, management, appropriate secure storage etc.

Theres a groundswell if issues that could be addressed, revisited, reviewed and enhanced.

We here the cry of anti abortionists that EVERY LIFE is sacred ... really???? What about ONE of the children slain in recent school shootings?

When does it become an issue socially .. ?? The parents of just one child that was killed on the altar of a gun wielding kids manifesto for fame?

How many kids need to die before something or anything is done to address a significant social issue?

Yes I keep returning to the issue as one of social import .. because it strikes at the heart of who you are as a nation.
It strikes at the heart of what you are becoming as a society imv. It is as everything is .. shaping your future.

Ironically by depriving some of one.

Its not just statistically unimpressive in terms of fatalities but it seems an underwhelming issue to some.

And its making life as cheap and disposable as life IS in developing countries .. where life is cheap. But a developed nation that can simply look and say oh well .. some kids were killed .. more people are killed in traffic accidents.

Such responses dont regard life as worth saving. Such should be as cavalier with abortions, no?
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Life is cheap. Very Happy There's no shortage of people, and we're definitely not in any danger of dying out.

Everything else is sentimentality. Very Happy

I've said it before...if there was a button which would instantly make every single firearm in the world inoperable, I would push it in an instant.

But as long as there is a chance of somebody shooting at me, I want to be able to shoot back.

If the cost of that is that innocent people will sometimes die, I can live with that. It's not possible to stop innocent people from dying. Whether it's from gunshots or car accidents or doctors mistakes. It's going to happen.

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are going to use the "death of children" as an impetus to take political action, what actions you take will reveal something of your concern...including what "children" are worth more than others.

If you focus on the the mainstream Left strategy for gun control and banning of assault weapons (it's not the abolishment of the 2nd Amendment, that's a fringe position) you show, in the US, that the lives of well-to-do white children are more important than poor children or children of color. Because let's face it, the gang violence that has been going on at schools far longer than the popular concern of school violence will not be hindered in any way from such a ban. Not because they will "break the law anyway", but because they are using weapons that would not be affected by that ban anyway. In that case, it is clear that the success criteria of gun control in this case is to protect the future of "rich kids" and not "the safety of kids".

And that's what you miss if you continue to focus on "kids shouldn't die!" It's a statement that has little more than emotional content (you will hear that same phrase in drives to raise money for childhood cancer research, but are you going to say that children dying of cancer is indicative of an immoral society like you would from children dying from gun shots?). It also ignores what is actually happening in the US. In case you did not notice, we have a lot going on that Australia does not.

I want all kids to have the best future they can. That will not work if we focus on something as inane and symptom-treating-only as an "assault weapon ban". There are kids that have their future taken away because of poverty, lack of access to quality education, the ever growing prevalence of opioides access, abortion laws that protect the rapist far more than the bodily autonomy of the victim, kids in fucking cages, Sky!

Thousands of kids, every year, vs tens of kids over the course of a couple of decades? If I have to triage what to do to alleviate the suffering of children (which one has to do) you better believe gun control is going to be low on that list. And if you are concerned about children in the US, you really should as well.

Because here's another crux of the matter: in my opinion, a liberal Democratic government setting policy is going to be far more effective at resolving all those problems than one headed by reality-star brat. And do you want to know a major reason I've heard, here in Ohio, from many, many folks (friends and strangers) as to why they voted Trump instead of any Democrat, even if they agreed with most of the Democratic policy or the candidate? It's because of gun control.

So all those kids in cages at the Mexican border? The part of the fault that does not lie with the Trump administration is the fault of Democrats that are more concerned about the safety of white children than any other race. And that's not concern over children. That's sacrificing however many children, and threatened minorities, you need to get to look after your "own kind".
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Hashi Lebwohl
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Think of the children" is the logical fallacy of appeal to emotion as well as "poisoning the well" by suggesting that the other side is *evil* because they don't care about children. The other thing to realize is that "if it saves the life of even one child" is the equivalent of a zero-tolerance policy and we know how stupid those can be. We could save the life of at least one child by banning all motorized vehicles right now but we won't do that because, as noted, that would be stupid.

In Chicago, a child is shot at least once each week despite Chicago's strict gun control laws. By extension, having Chicago-style gun laws everywhere in the nation would not significantly reduce shootings because--surprise--criminals do not obey the law.

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