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Skyweir
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Skyweir wrote:
The US conception of free speech is not the global pinnacle or even is it the global benchmark standard. Not in Europe nor in Canada, nor down under. Its an exceptionally narrow conception.


Actually, I am correct; this is not a matter of debate, merely a statement of fact. Another statement of fact: no one comes across as more arrogant than me. As you note via that article in The Close, it is morally wrong to believe something without sufficient evidence. Well, I have sufficient evidence to prove that the United States is better because of how we handle free speech, therefore it would be morally wrong to believe otherwise.

Those "reasonable limits on free speech" found in other nations are part of the reason why the United States is the *the* go-to destination for most people seeking a better life. Sure, they will settle for Canada or England if they can't make it into the United States, but if given a choice this is their number one preferred destination--people are *more* free here.


I must comment here that what you have described above is AN OPINION .. your assessment is perhaps based on some facts you have perhaps observed .. nevertheless.. YOUR assessment constitutes AN OPINION not A FACT.

If you cannot demonstrate HOW or WHY the US is the pinnacle standard of the concept of free speech .. it remains AN OPINION.

From your perspective a sound reasonable opinion .. but NOT a fact.

And IF indeed you WERE able to make such a case AND your opinion was SHARED by the broader global community there would have been no hope in hell of Facebook ever being able to ban Alex Jones and the other dudes.

I truly and genuinely believe AND understand it IS a challenging notion that Free Speech has limitations ascribed to it elsewhere in the world .. but that is a FACT. It is not my opinion that I offer .. it is a wealth of legislationnand case law that has established reasonable limitations to the concept of Free Speech and what that means and what that looks like.

And RR the definition of hate speech is more broadly defined in the legislation that specifically applies to it. However there are common definitions that describe it as this

Quote:
abusive or threatening speech or writing that expresses prejudice against a particular group, especially on the basis of race, religion, or sexual orientation.
"we don't tolerate any form of hate


Hence white supremacy proponents being the target of the ban from Facebook.

With anything in law .. definitions are paramount However we are not talking about a crime of hate speech or a crime of inciting violence .. we are talking Facebooks business decision NOT to be used as a platform FOR hate speech. Which they clearly and demonstrably within their rights to do.

Also Facebook has determined what the standard FOR hate speech is and I suppose because I am unfamiliar with the inner executive and administrative workings of Facebook that they have a system in place for the reporting and assessing of what actually constitutes the material that they deem hate speech .. and what they have determined identifies a Facebook account that disseminates hate speech.
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For your edification wiki has a page dedicated to Hate Speech laws in Australia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_Australia

And this is a rather good overview of Hate Speech from a European perspective
https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/FS_Hate_speech_ENG.pdf

And hate speech laws in the UK
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United_Kingdom
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still haven't explained what makes Carl Benjamin a bad person. I'm genuinely curious since it seems labels are thrown out and no one is willing to actually discuss why/answer direct questions as to the reason for holding such opinions.
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh I do apologise. I missed that question.

I personally dont like him, I dont like his style of commentary, he provides misinformation whilst fully ignoring the facts, hes a nasty misogynist. I found his tape comments particularly distasteful.. but thats just me. Yet Imnot alone but I suspect you already well acquainted with his style and his manner. Hes rabidly anti left, which might be an appeal?? 🤷‍♀️ I dont know.

But rationalwiki give a good overview
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sargon_of_Akkad

Well he said he would rape
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Oh I do apologise. I missed that question.

I personally dont like him, I dont like his style of commentary, he provides misinformation whilst fully ignoring the facts, hes a nasty misogynist. I found his tape comments particularly distasteful.. but thats just me. Yet Imnot alone but I suspect you already well acquainted with his style and his manner. Hes rabidly anti left, which might be an appeal?? 🤷‍♀️ I dont know.

But rationalwiki give a good overview
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sargon_of_Akkad

Well he said he would rape


The social media post in question had to do with him telling a Labour MP "I wouldn't even rape you" implying that she was ugly and no one would have wanted to rape her even if they did rape women. I'm not entirely sure why he tweeted her that message.

The guy has a style of being provocative, something I can appreciate since I am a George Carlin fan and see the value of offensive humor with respect to free speech.

The main take-away I got from the Rational Wiki article (I don't put much stock in that website...obviously it's very biased and tends to misrepresent people. Kind of like a pro-life website misrepresenting pro-choice arguments and politicians at times.) is that he's not ideologically consistent. I don't think that's a bad thing because I don't put much stock into ideological purity in the first place. In fact, I just see it as he's more flexible in his views.

As for the misogyny, he would say that he is simply treating women equally as men. If he's gonna be a dick to a man, he will be a dick to a woman as well. This ends up being seen as misogynistic. It also goes back to the Gamergate days where there was blowback against radical feminists and the whole "Video games cause ____x____!" debate.

As for being anti-leftist, really depends on how you want to describe leftism vs rightism. He claims to be a classical liberal and a modern leftist. He has a pretty liberal view towards sexuality and the like, as opposed to someone who is more conservative may view such topics. He's still popular among young conservatives though, so take that as you will.

Some people have described him as alt-right, but this is not accurate at all. He gets trolled constantly by alt-right people, and neo-Nazis like to call him "Sargoy of Mossad." They have even more motivation to troll his video comments sections because Youtube is holding content creators responsible for what people post in the comments section now. So by trolls saying crap like "gas the Jews," over and over, Youtube could theoretically take action against his account.
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice overview Nano. Its interesting to hear another side of Carl Benjamin. And one that favours him.

Hes not my cuppa tea Im afraid but the next time I happen to watch him I will take your input into account and see if I can see a different better side of him.

Humans are composites of shades of grey .. rarely good or evil but we tend to bleed between the two .. at least that is my experience.
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the United States, we do not charge people with a crime for having or voicing an opinion, even a vicious, unpopular, or blatantly incorrect option; therefore, our system is better.

This is not a debate; this is me explaining why the system here is better. Other nations may choose to follow whatever stupid laws they want--not my problem and not my concern.

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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a debate Hashi .. its a discussion forum of debate.

And in the US that is the way of it .. but I have demonstrated that, that is NOT the way of it globally.

And you have failed to demonstrate likewise YOUR contention that the US is the pinnacle standard of free speech.

Your opinion on that matter is abundantly clear but you have not provided any substance or support for your contention.
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you stand on a street corner in Frankfurt or Manchester and you deny the Holocaust, you can be put in jail. If you stand on a street corner in Kansas City and deny the Holocaust you will be ignored by some people and heckled by others, but the police won't even bother with you unless the crowd get too large or too unruly. Therefore, the system in the United States is better.

I am uncertain which part of that you will ignore but it doesn't matter. You may continue to be incorrect if that is your wish.

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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
It also goes back to the Gamergate days where there was blowback against radical feminists and the whole "Video games cause ____x____!" debate.


Yeah, Gamergate was such a noble cause.




Ugh.
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your point being? None of those are reputable sources. Of course they will just say "Gamergate bad!" because you know who wrote them.

If you want to know more about Gamergate, why don't you see both sides of the story instead of just one? Go watch content produced by the people involved in Gamergate.

From just a cursory glance at your articles, it seems Gamergate was mainly over issues like unethical behavior between journalists and game developers. Also doxing and death threats is a harassment technique used mainly by the left. It's not right to do that, but it's what it is.
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a neat short video explaining the importance of free speech and allowing dissident voices a forum in which to speak freely.
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
Your point being? None of those are reputable sources. Of course they will just say "Gamergate bad!" because you know who wrote them.

If you want to know more about Gamergate, why don't you see both sides of the story instead of just one? Go watch content produced by the people involved in Gamergate.

From just a cursory glance at your articles, it seems Gamergate was mainly over issues like unethical behavior between journalists and game developers. Also doxing and death threats is a harassment technique used mainly by the left. It's not right to do that, but it's what it is.


I'm not going to argue this with you, because I know people affected and I know more about it than just these articles. I was just posting those articles for those who didn't know what misogynistic bunch of crap your 4chan buddies are trying to sell. And from my experience, the death threats and harassment are definitely not "mainly from the left."
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kk will continue to disregard ^^
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is your point here Nano?

I agree we are seeing a move away from the centre from both sides of the political spectrum. That is indeed demonstrably true and I agree.

Was there an assessment from this fact that you are making?

Thank you Cags.. I have read some about 4chan and appreciated the input you have provided. Very clarifying.
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe my point was that the graph shows a greater number of people on the Left side of the political spectrum deviating from the center than the Right, which has been my personal observation of politics in the US.
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh that WAS it 😂

I thought there was an overarching point that observation implied 😉

My bad 😘
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
I believe my point was that the graph shows a greater number of people on the Left side of the political spectrum deviating from the center than the Right, which has been my personal observation of politics in the US.
That is not what the graph shows at all. There is no "defined political center" defined on the graph. All the graph shows is that the distance between what a median Democrat is and what a median Republican is has widened. That's it. Could be they are both moving opposite, could be because Republicans are moving further right, and so forth.
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I interpreted the overlap (purple area) as the "center" in the graph since that's basically the definition of a political center (overlap between left and right sides of the political spectrum). The amplitude decreases, showing a decrease in the number of centrists.

It is pretty obvious that the medians for Democrats and Republicans has shifted further left and further right respectively. The amplitude for Democrats shifted further left is a lot taller than that for the Republicans, which is more spread out.
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