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Rebooting the Gun Control Discussion
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny that... Laughing

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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

🤔🤔🤔 good points I must admit it.

I think your view Orlion on the social betterment of opportunity and quality of life for all children is sound.

I cant argue with that.

I guess identifying what the threats and risks are is a more effective way forward if you plan on addressing those.

I do however believe whatever we .. governments do or dont do ... has consequences and is shaping the future. Every action, every inaction establishes the direction of societal priorities.
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:


I do however believe whatever we .. governments do or dont do ... has consequences and is shaping the future. Every action, every inaction establishes the direction of societal priorities.


It does, and that's why it is very important to accurately identify priorities for our country, society, etc. And that needs to be informed by current environment and what affects it historically and geographically.

To take the example of Chicago having failed gun laws: why is that? One attribute is that it's right next to a shit-hole city known as Gary, Indiana. It would be very easy to leave Chicago, get illicit guns and return. Chicago not only has to deal with the problems inherent in being a ridiculously large city, it has to deal with being right next to a crime-infested city in a different state that is not beholden to its laws or the laws of Illinois.

Those are problems that are not addressed in the gun control laws. The gun control laws can be used to "throw the book" at those that break them, but it does nothing to discourage those who think they won't get caught or don't care. It's just punishment after the fact, and I am not sure that strict criminal justice is an effective deterrent (in the drug issues, it is demonstrably not).

And that's one example. You start to see similar relationships on the National stage. Guns and drugs probably do not flow into the US from Canada, but they do from Mexico. And though transportation is not going to be as easy as from Gary, Indiana to Chicago, it is still there. And that's not talking about the insane amount of guns, registered and otherwise, all ready in the country.

Now, compare what I pointed out to New Zealand's situation. Not even getting into historic concerns, we can all ready see that strict gun control is much easier to implement, much easier to enforce, and much harder to get around. What is an ineffective policy in Chicago is completely viable in New Zealand.

Which is why I am very adamant that places like New Zealand are not brought up as examples of "how to do gun control." Because those places don't have to contend with the myriad problems that exist in the US. There is frankly, no comparison.

In other words, if you want some form of gun control to succeed in the US, it has to be tailored to the US. New Zealand, Australia, etc. styles of gun control simply will not work because the underlying issues are not the same and only share the nominal characteristic of "it involves guns".
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orlion wrote:

Now, compare what I pointed out to New Zealand's situation. Not even getting into historic concerns, we can all ready see that strict gun control is much easier to implement, much easier to enforce, and much harder to get around. What is an ineffective policy in Chicago is completely viable in New Zealand.

Which is why I am very adamant that places like New Zealand are not brought up as examples of "how to do gun control." Because those places don't have to contend with the myriad problems that exist in the US. There is frankly, no comparison.

In other words, if you want some form of gun control to succeed in the US, it has to be tailored to the US. New Zealand, Australia, etc. styles of gun control simply will not work because the underlying issues are not the same and only share the nominal characteristic of "it involves guns".


This.

The people who suggest "well, this law works in my country/this country/somewhere" don't realize that they are suggesting a "one size fits all" solution, and we have plenty of examples showing how "one size fits all" solutions usually aren't very good solutions.

*************

The Texas House just passed a bill which would allow licensed handgun owners to carry their firearms into a church. Recall that it was only 2 years ago when they guy shot up the Sutherland Springs church, which ended when he was, himself, killed by two "good guys with guns". Churches--and other places of worship--will still be allowed to post individual notices preventing the carrying of guns into their buildings...but, truthfully, there have been guns inside the congregation areas of places of worship in Texas since the early 1990s, way back when another insane criminal gunned down people in a Waco church. Most churches quietly ask their current and former military or police members to bring guns to worship then sit near the doors. This bill would just make such a practice more open.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post Orlion.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes very good post.

Frankly Id like to disagree with a great number of issues raised but in absolute honest I cant. You are right .. in particular the international comparison issue.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote





I just learned about this today. This is pretty interesting how a nation that disarms its citizens can be begging other nations that don't disarm citizens for weapons when faced with the threat of imminent invasion. This should be food for thought for those who smugly chide Americans for our 2nd amendment right to bear arms and general fondness for guns and knives.

Also, from what I understand, Britain didn't return the guns as requested but simply dumped them into the ocean. So much for that.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't know about them dumping them in the ocean, but was aware of the original campaign for this. Ironic, innit? Very Happy

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oddly
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Truthfully, I hadn't heard of that program either. A very good reason *not* to try and disarm your citizens--you never know when an armed foe might decide to knock down your front door.

We got just a bill passed across Abbott's desk which will make it easier for school districts to opt into a voluntary program to allow teachers and professors to carry on campus, after going through a training program offered via their local police department.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually that assertion has been roundly disputed. In fact it has been established that the opposite is true. Ill see if I can find the study and add a link to it.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The night before she lost her life in the Virginia City shooting, Kate Nixon had spoken with her husband about her inability to carry a gun at work for safety because the city had a policy against carrying, even if the owner had a valid State conceal carry license.

In other words, gun-free zones don't make people safer, they only make a shooter's job easier by giving them easy and soft targets who cannot fight back.

If you have a conceal carry license, you should still carry your gun into places which post signs saying "no guns". They will have to search you in order to find it and unless they are going to search everyone for potential guns you cannot be singled out.

Ms. Nixon might still be dead even if she had a gun with her but at least she would have been able to go down swinging rather than being a helpless victim.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

😔
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I'm largely in favour of that. Concealed means concealed. If you carry concealed, nobody should know you have it, therefore carrying it everywhere shouldn't be much of an issue.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, Av. One other thing I have a problem with is cities prohibiting certain weapons (eg guns and knives) legal elsewhere. Generally the first amendment should be strictly adhered to with citizens' right to bear arms. To do otherwise should be seen as unlawful as it goes against the constitution, or at least the spirit of it.

Speaking of which, I might create a thread for the discussion of ivory bans in the near future.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Possibly .. but a possibility we was unable to test.

Honestly I see your point .. do you suggest there should be no gun free zones?

I mean sure a gun free zone wont stop someone who is hellbent on shooting in a gun free zone. How did the shooter enter the gun free zone? Arent people checked, WTMDs etc?

If not why not? Such measures exist to minimise the risk of firearms entering GFZs.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus theres no guarantee that arming everyone will reduce mass shootings.

As a first responder its got to be a concern in managing mass shooting incidents. Complicates the identification of the shooter .. when you have a wall of shooters to sort through .. shooting.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Plus theres no guarantee that arming everyone will reduce mass shootings.

As a first responder its got to be a concern in managing mass shooting incidents. Complicates the identification of the shooter .. when you have a wall of shooters to sort through .. shooting.


It isn't so much as reducing the number of shootings (in fact this kind of data is inflated because they might include accidental discharges as a "shooting" in a school zone, for example) as it is reaffirming the right of a person to defend themselves. Also, to be perfectly frank, and it isn't PC to say this but look at the ethnicities that commit most violent gun crimes... It isn't the people that tend to be responsible gun-owners who love the second amendment. And this isn't "spin" like the numbers are pretty even but slightly higher in some groups than others; it's overwhelmingly and disproportionately representative numbers.

The problem isn't guns but rather cultures of violence within certain communities. If you tackle poverty in these communities and get rid of other factors that contribute to the culture of violence, then you can fix the "gun problem."

Most gun owners are model citizens.... really the most honorable and trustworthy people you will ever meet.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
I agree, Av. One other thing I have a problem with is cities prohibiting certain weapons (eg guns and knives) legal elsewhere.


Not an issue we have here. With almost no exceptions, the same law applies everywhere in the country. (The only exception I can think of is that one province had different liquor laws regulating trading, but I see that was changed several years ago already to match the rest of the country.)

Skyweir wrote:

I mean sure a gun free zone wont stop someone who is hellbent on shooting in a gun free zone. How did the shooter enter the gun free zone? Arent people checked, WTMDs etc?

If not why not? Such measures exist to minimise the risk of firearms entering GFZs.


Interestingly, the majority of mass shootings in the US have occurred in "gun-free" zones. It seems people feel safer shooting others there, ( Smile ) presumably because the chance of retaliation is lower.

And no, people are not checked when entering them, because they're nothing but a "feel good" measure. Law abiding citizens will refrain from carrying firearms there, because of fear of censure. Criminals of course do not fear censure, especially if they're going to commit a crime, so I don't really understand the point behind them.

They are successful at preventing people who woulodn't commit the crime anyway from committing it. Not so much the people who do commit them though...

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well ... feel good measures are useless ineffectual measures. In GFZs the fact that such zones are not screening people seeking to enter them is infuriatingly stupid.

Yes why the fuck have a GFZ is its .. quasi sterility cant be maintained??

Fucked up half ass measures do nothing other than create problems and ...

We have established security zones AND we dont have to worry about illigitimate carry conceal to worry about and WE STILL have WTMDs and a raft of screening measures to maintain them.

Things like this grinds my gears. What is the fecking point?

So I agree absolutely ZERO point in designating GFZs like that .. you are turning these locations into HIGH IMPACT VICTIM ZONES. Which is utterly counter productive.

Good post Nano .. thanks for that detail. I also agree that the majority of legitimate firearms owners, are responsible users.

I also agree with your and Orlions perspective on this being a socioeconomic, cultural AND arguably mental health issue which I think CAN and should be addressed.

As to profiling mass shooters .. gotta say the majority of mass shooters in the US are overwhelmingly white Caucasian males. That in itself is relevant AND does not detract from your observation that most violent firearms crimes are perpetrated by persons from lower socioeconomic groups. Work can and should be done with respect to that also. Agreed.
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