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Capital Punishment
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The Death Penalty is:
A Deterrent
8%
 8%  [ 3 ]
State-Sanctioned Murder
40%
 40%  [ 14 ]
Justifiable
31%
 31%  [ 11 ]
A Waste of Time
11%
 11%  [ 4 ]
Other -- Please Explain
8%
 8%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 35

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

U.S. bishops urge immediate halt to federal executions

Quote:

The Federal Correctional Complex in Terre Haute, Ind., from June 2001: William Emmett LeCroy, 50, on Tuesday would be the sixth federal inmate executed by lethal injection here this year. (CNS photo/Andy Clark, Reuters)


The U.S. bishops’ conference has called for a halt to federal executions scheduled for this week, issuing a statement on the afternoon before U.S. Attorney General William Barr is scheduled to receive an award at the National Catholic Prayer Breakfast in Washington — a gathering this year that has proved especially controversial precisely because of the federal government’s reinstatement of the death penalty under Mr. Barr. The bishops called the application of capital punishment “completely unnecessary and unacceptable.”

“In the last 60 years, before the Trump administration restarted federal executions, there were only four federal executions,” the bishops wrote. “Since July, there have been five, which is already more federal executions than were carried out in any year in the last century. There are two more federal executions scheduled this week.

“We say to President Trump and Attorney General Barr: Enough. Stop these executions.”

Archbishop Paul S. Coakley of Oklahoma City, chair of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Committee on Domestic Justice and Human Development, and Archbishop Joseph F. Naumann of Kansas City, Kan., chair of the Committee on Pro-Life Activities, issued the statement on behalf of the conference.

[…]

“Accountability and legitimate punishment are a part of this process,” they said. “Responsibility for harm is necessary if healing is to occur and can be instrumental in protecting society, but executions are completely unnecessary and unacceptable, as Popes St. John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis have all articulated.”

In August 2018 Pope Francis approved a revision of number 2267 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, according to which “a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state,” rendering the death penalty “inadmissible.”

[…]

The execution of William Emmett LeCroy is scheduled later today, Sept. 22, and Christopher Andre Vialva is scheduled for execution on Sept. 24. The Trump administration reinstated capital punishment in July, conducting the first federal execution since 2003 when Daniel Lewis Lee was put to death by lethal injection in Terre Haute, Ind.]



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banana 7-up
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Pope Francis closes the door on the death penalty in ‘Fratelli Tutti’ [In-Depth]

Quote:

Pope Francis blesses a prisoner as he visits the Curran-Fromhold Correctional Facility in Philadelphia in this Sept. 27, 2015, file photo. (CNS photo/Paul Haring)


Pope Francis’ new encyclical, Fratelli Tutti, does something that some Catholics believed could not be done: It ratifies a change in church teaching. In this case, on the death penalty.

In 2018, Pope Francis ordered a change in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the official compendium of church teaching, when he termed the death penalty “inadmissible.” Today the pope placed the full weight of his teaching authority behind this statement: The death penalty is inadmissible, and Catholics should work for its abolition. A papal encyclical is one of the highest of all documents in terms of its authority, removing any lingering doubt about the church’s belief.

“There can be no stepping back from this position,” says Francis, referring to the opposition to capital punishment expressed by St. John Paul II. “Today we state clearly that ‘the death penalty is inadmissible’ and the Church is firmly committed to calling for its abolition worldwide.”

[…]

In past centuries, the church was generally accepting of the death penalty. Both St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas declared it licit not only for the sake of punishment, but also as a way for the state to protect itself, ideas that took hold in the church and influenced civil society. In the Roman Catechism, written after the Council of Trent in the 16th century, the church supported the death penalty for those two reasons: “Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent.”

As recently as the 1990s, the Catechism of the Catholic Church said that the state could still use capital punishment to protect people from violent criminals: “The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.”

In 1995, however, in his encyclical Evangelium Vitae, St. John Paul II tightened the restrictions, saying that the times that the state needed to use capital punishment to protect other citizens were “very rare, if not practically non-existent.” Four years later, he called for its abolition. So did Pope Benedict XVI, in 2011. The door to the death penalty was gradually closing. Today it was shut. It is a clear example of the development of doctrine over the centuries.

[…]

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So properly executing Dylan Roof is wrong, but Joe Biden supporting abortion is OK?

I'm confused.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You do seem to be

I’d love to help you Null but I don’t know how. These are two different issues ...

A person might be against abortion and also against capital punishment, right?

And this is the Pope and Catholicism that has declared this change ... not Biden. Right?

Are you bringing Biden into this because he’s Catholic?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have a bingo. The pope is against punishing the guilty. Say noted racist mass murderer Dylan Roof.

But Biden gets a pass as a Catholic who supports unrestricted abortion.

I'm just confused here.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No the Pope is against CAPITAL punishment.

He is not suggesting those convicted of crimes should go free, should not face punishment.

Incarceration is punishment - as you well know. We also know there are a range of punishments within the justice system.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you find sharia law appealing?

Cuz few religions today prescribe to blood atonement.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Do you find sharia law appealing?

Cuz few religions today prescribe to blood atonement.


No. I don't believe in throwing gays off buildings. I don't believe women are the property of men. I don't believe in the genocide of non-believers.

What I do believe is that proven mass murderers forfeit their right to life.

Shoot up a church full of innocents. Killing a dozen or more? Liberals will plead for the murderers' life. Abort 60 million plus? Crickets from the left.

We should make it mandatory that crematoriums be used to dispose of the fetuses.
We could set up trains for transport.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting but you too are arguing a life for a life ... which sharia law also argues.

Most western democracies today have set aside such laws and structures.

Though I would have loved to see this passion raised against school shootings.

Who is more innocent than a child?

And what of the children of asylum seekers? Desperately exodusing their own countries to ensure the livelihoods and wellbeing of their little ones. Cage them, mistreat them?

What does the bible say about harming children?

Quote:
But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.


What does religion bring to the discussion - whether it be Christian or Sharia beliefs?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sky - i have been very vocal about school shootings and gun violence.

The forty year sentence was my idea. It works like this; you commit any crime using a gun, automatic forty year sentence just for the gun. Plus whatever the crime. So if you rob a liquor store with a gun? Forty years time before you serve the twenty for the robbery.

We treat schools like we treat banks or government buildings. Secure buildings. Campus police.

We stop dumping the mentally ill on the street.

We actually prosecute people for straw purchases and lying on the 4473.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must have missed it.

Gotta say I’m pleasantly surprised.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sky - honestly you have known me long enough to know I want actual criminals in prison. Drug users go to rehab if its the only thing they've done. And we legalize most drugs.

We segregate criminals by crime types. Non-violent inmates go to vocational prison where we train them for good jobs. Stop the revolving door.

Murderers and sex offenders either the death penalty or long periods of confinement.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+


Pope Francis @Pontifex | Twitter

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the original question, the death penalty is a waste of time.

There's no good evidence that it significantly deters crime (depending on how it's implemented, it can INCREASE it). As far as closure for the victims? That's doubtful, particularly by itself. It seems to me that closure has to involve psychological counseling, without which other key problems are not addressed.

And it's cheaper to lock them up until they die. Aside from saving taxpayer dollars (which shouldn't be a moral consideration but is for certain elements of the population) this means that you avoid executing innocent people. Monetary recompense can be provided for wrongful imprisonment. You can't bring an innocent man back to life.

Accordingly, I do not really see how the death penalty serves any useful purpose in an established society, even when guilt can be assured.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it prevents any possibility of re-offence. (And that is probably literally the only benefit, unless you count vengeance by the state / family.)

And it shouldn't be more expensive than locking somebody up for life, but that's because of your appeals process etc.

Personally, I think it's a lot crueller to lock somebody up for life than to execute them, but that may be a plus for some people. Very Happy

As for executing innocent people, I agree that the burden of proof for execution should be a hell of a high bar...the literal "standing over corpse with smoking gun" or whatever.

The reality is that, in a country where people are executed, the occasional innocent is the price you pay. Sucks for the innocent though, that's for sure.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orlion wrote:

And it's cheaper to lock them up until they die.


Untrue. One bullet to the back of the head is cheaper; however, your other point is true--some of the people executed in this manner will actually be innocent so it depends upon how many "innnocent victims" you are willing to tolerate. Note: abortion advocates--myself included, within reason--already tolerate innocent victims losing their lives, so they may not truthfully answer "no innocent victims".

I still favor exile. Drop them off, wish them luck, and forget about them.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

His point is true in practice, yours in theory. Very Happy

As for the "Coventry" idea, (see Heinlein's "Revolt in 2100") I've always been a fan, but the Australians are not keen on giving up their continent. Very Happy

As an advocate of abortion myself, the "innocent lives" thing is a bit perception-driven. I don't consider foeti human yet, so I have less investment from that point of view.

However, I'm also willing to accept those who do classify them as such, so in principle I have to agree.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orlion wrote:

And it's cheaper to lock them up until they die.
No it really isn't.

I'm foursquare with what Hashi said here. There is no purely economic argument for not having the death penalty - quite the reverse in point of fact. However - and again as you and Hashi both point out - can the death penalty ever be justified, given the fact that it is provably on occasion unjustly applied? My answer would be on balance a big fat no - and I can't see a flawless way of coming up with legislation that is specific enough to avoid all possibility of any wrongful State execution.

Avatar wrote:
As for the "Coventry" idea, (see Heinlein's "Revolt in 2100") I've always been a fan, but the Australians are not keen on giving up their continent. Very Happy
Heh...

Av, given the manner in which Australia was originally settled (i.e. as the trashcan of Europe), you left out one very important word from the end of that sentence, namely...

..."again".

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha, fair enough.

As for the "cheaper" thing, Orlion is referring to the fact that in the US, it is more expensive for the state to go through the process leading up to execution than it is to simply imprison the felon for life.

To be honest I don't know the actual numbers, but it is certainly a claim I have seen made before in numerous sources.

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