Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Is Dark Energy Necessary?

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Loresraat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
No Fear

Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 9749

Thanks: 41
Thanked 64 Times in 63 Posts

Location: HMP UK
54764 White Gold Dollars

User Items:

PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:29 am    Post subject: Is Dark Energy Necessary? Reply with quote

Walk with me through this. It'll probably expose a fundamental misunderstanding or two on my part, but this will be worth it to me just to get things straight.

Okay. By our understanding of gravity (bit Newtonian I know but run with it) every bit of matter in the universe should be attracting every other bit. So, one assumes in a near frictionless environment such as space, that this force of attraction would result in all of the matter of the universe gradually pulling together into one solid clump. (Would such a clump by necessity implode, with the gravitational force at it's center essentially crushing the matter out of existence? - Well, that's a question I'll leave aside for the moment.)

Given that most of the universal matter is concentrated into galaxies, spotted about like raisins in a fruit cake, it makes sense to talk about the behaviour of galaxies and to look at them when considering what matter is doing, but as has long been known we find that galaxies, far from being drawn together as gravitational theory would suggest it should be, are instead moving away from each other. Well, that's okay - we could expect to see that if there were a 'big-bang' - a mammoth explosive propulsion of matter away from a central point, early in the universal history. But it isn't just matter that is flying apart is it; the whole universe is inflating, like a balloon expanding and carrying the galaxies apart as it does so. The red-shift we see when looking at galaxies through telescopes is a side effect of this - though why this should be so I'm not sure; I understand the 'doppler effect' applied to light-waves, but if the universe is expanding, wouldn't every thing within it - including the light waves themselves expand with it (effectively negating the red-shift)...... again, by-the-by, a question for another time.

So, so far so good - we have our expanding universe, our big bang theory, our gravitational theory, all in place and all hanging together......but suddenly a fly is introduced into the ointment. If the gravitational theory of matter is correct, then it should be seen at least in a slowing down of the rate at which galaxies are moving away from each other (and presumably at some point, turning back into an acceleration in the opposite direction to where we would expect to be, with all of the matter racing back towards itself to form the aforementioned clump, and the universe itself to end in a cataclysmic 'crunch').

But observation shows that this isn't happening. Rather, the galaxies, the universe itself is accelerating in its expansion, as though far from experiencing a force that is pulling it back together, this is being massively outstretched by a force that is driving it appart - a force we cannot account for, have no idea of what it is......... and enter dark energy.

Dark energy is simply (to my understanding) a made-up force, like unto the cycles and epicycles of Ptolomy, to explain the phenomenon of the accelerating expansion of the universe. There is no evidence of its existence (other than the said expansion - but this is circular reasoning if ever it occurred) to backup the idea, no concrete experimental data that confirms it exists, and this is where my question at the head of this post arrises - why does it have to? I mean, it seems to me that we already have all the tools we need in order to answer the conundrum of the accelerating universal expansion without recourse to inventing an entirely new energy of which we know nothing and understand less.

We know from Einstein's theory (general, I think) that space-time is bent (by the presence of matter). I know that as a result of this bending, we can explain how the universe can be both infinite and limited in size at the same time. (Like a 3-D version of the surface of a ball, infinite to the ant walking on its surface, but only because it folds back onto itself.) We know that if I sit in my chair in my front room, take a vertical path upwards and never deviate from it, then this bending of space-time will result in my coming up through the floorboards and disappearing up my own jacksy. it so hard to imagine a situation where despite what our telscopes tell us, that the galaxies are accelerating away from each other, due to the bending of space they are actually taking the path that is an acceleration toward each other. Sort of like a long path round a torus that they are obligated to take in order to implode in the big-crash. Surely our math can easier explain the acceleration within the framework of Einstein's space-time bending, in a way that fits the observation, rather than invent a new and entirely hypothetical energy to account for it? Seems to me..........

Political genius relies upon extracting success even from the people's ruin. (Alexander Solzhenitsyn)

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lazy Luke
License to Copycat

Joined: 06 May 2018
Posts: 1369

Thanks: 4
Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts

Location: Plasticdisguiseville
2870 White Gold Dollars

User Items:

PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote: it so hard to imagine a situation where despite what our telscopes tell us, that the galaxies are accelerating away from each other, due to the bending of space

Aren't we on a collision course with Andromeda?

peter wrote:
Dark energy - why does it have to?

Do photons behave in similar ways to neutrinos, in that they are simply too small and weak in order to light up dark energy.
If all the light generated in the universe for the last 14billion years is still not enough to light up the night sky then the universe, to say the least, is massive - and so will remain for a very long time - a dark place.

I'm a great believer in simplicity. Every question on outer space can be found right down here on Earth.
For example, as fire needs oxygen in order to be fire, then surely light needs dark energy in order to be light.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Servant of the Land

Joined: 10 Dec 2019
Posts: 1

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

10 White Gold Dollars

User Items:

PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, starting at your last, peter, all of our math--NONE of our math--in fact matches the observations....

IF far galaxies were actually accelerating towards us/each other, our instruments would be able to see and measure the curvature...but, in fact, though space is curved "locally" it is measurably FLAT overall.
There are ways around this...but the require things that are measurable false [in some cases] and/or several "unknown forces" [not just one dark energy].

And even if it is curved, when you get rid of the things you don't like about the current state of affairs, that doesn't mean you can eventually fly up your own butt [[because, despite what you say we "know" what we really "know" is that you CAN't fly up your butt---cuz there's no reason to believe it isn't curved the OTHER direction.

Dark energy isn't "invented" DESPITE not fitting observations, it is proposed because it is the only thing we have right now that FITS the observations. [[which is exactly opposite the epicycles...people knew at least half a millennium before there were other options, math/science/observation/fact wise. They just didn't LIKE the options cuz people with power insisted God Says The Earth Is The Center and would kill people who didn't agree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fist and Faith
Magister Vitae

Joined: 01 Dec 2002
Posts: 19340

Thanks: 100
Thanked 103 Times in 99 Posts

14140 White Gold Dollars

User Items:
1 Foul Duck1 Lord Mhoram's Victory1 2011 Watchies

PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is probably the most unique choice ever of location for a first post at the Watch! Laughing

Welcome to the Watch, lear.
We are not required to save the world. We are required to stand up as truly as we can for what we love. -SRD

All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
Immanentizing The Eschaton

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 60155

Thanks: 74
Thanked 194 Times in 190 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
37664 White Gold Dollars

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran1 Furls Fire

PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love it when lurkers arise. Very Happy Welcome aboard Lear, well come and true. Very Happy

It's easy to judge. It's more difficult to understand.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Loresraat All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch