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President Trump (Part 2)
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Zarathustra
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Claiming that Dems are embracing Stalinism is the same as Trump claiming that the election was stolen - both are lies that are told to avoid confronting the truth.
I clearly said "Marxism," not "Stalinism." So, lie. Do you deny that the people in America who support Marxism are on the Left? People in the Democratic party? Aren't you avoiding that truth with your lie?

Quote:
The truth is that no one would have any fruits of their labor if capitalism wasn't restrained. Capitalism created wealth, but it was pro-labor regulations that allowed you to have any of it.
I'm in management. I don't "labor." I manage. I'm a boss. I don't need pro-labor regulations to allow me to keep my money. I just need you Dems to stop trying to take it.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
I don't "labor." I manage. I'm a boss. I don't need pro-labor regulations to allow me to keep my money. I just need you Dems to stop trying to take it.


KK, we'll take away your health insurance plan, social security retirement, and any right to claim unemployment should your boss (every boss has a boss) fire you for a bullshit reason and force you to train your replacement.

You don't want to be a drag on society, do you?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would love to opt out of Social Security. Give me the prinicpal I have paid into the system and the government may keep the interest; after that, the 6.2% and the 1.45% for Medicare can go right back into my pocket...or, rather, the retirement account I have for myself.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Links: Great obituary for a great priest [News Roundup]

Quote:



[Ö]

From The Dallas Morning News, Congressman Louie Gohmert plans a legal challenge to the ceremonial role Vice President Mike Pence is slated to play at next week's counting of the Electoral College ballots. The vice president is president of the Senate. Gohmert wants Pence to be able to count different electoral slates if he chooses. What I did not know is that Gohmert is from the city of Tyler, Texas. Maybe there is something in the water?

[Ö]

I find listening to longtime President Donald Trump allies who have flipped uniquely painful. But on Monday, on the "The Beat with Ari Melber," former Trump attorney Michael Cohen made an interesting point about Trump's decision to bestow pardons on so many of his colleagues: Now that they have a pardon, they cannot invoke their Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. So, in future testimony, they might be compelled to speak about what they know. Very interesting.

[Ö]

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wosbald wrote:
Quote:

I find listening to longtime President Donald Trump allies who have flipped uniquely painful. But on Monday, on the "The Beat with Ari Melber," former Trump attorney Michael Cohen made an interesting point about Trump's decision to bestow pardons on so many of his colleagues: Now that they have a pardon, they cannot invoke their Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. So, in future testimony, they might be compelled to speak about what they know. Very interesting.


That is not how pardons and the Fifth Amendment work. Pardons are very specific so any question which does not touch upon that subject could open potential self-incrimination issues; therefore, recipients may still invoke the Fifth. Of course, no one in the Trump Campaign or Administration is actually guilty of any crime, so they won't need the Fifth. The only reason they needed pardons is because "lying to investigators" is a procedural crime which existed only because there was an investigation; no investigation would have meant no "guilty" verdicts.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Wosbald wrote:
Quote:

I find listening to longtime President Donald Trump allies who have flipped uniquely painful. But on Monday, on the "The Beat with Ari Melber," former Trump attorney Michael Cohen made an interesting point about Trump's decision to bestow pardons on so many of his colleagues: Now that they have a pardon, they cannot invoke their Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. So, in future testimony, they might be compelled to speak about what they know. Very interesting.


That is not how pardons and the Fifth Amendment work. Pardons are very specific so any question which does not touch upon that subject could open potential self-incrimination issues Ö


Well, of course. Pardons don't open one to testifying tout court w/o fear of self-incrimination.

I don't think that the snippet suggested otherwise.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I read it makes it appear as if "asking the right questions" would somehow force recipients to tell what they know. "Receiving a pardon" does not force someone to answer a question. The author of that article is a member of the "lock him up" crowd towards Trump like some people were in the "lock her up" crowd about Hillary.
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Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:
I don't "labor." I manage. I'm a boss. I don't need pro-labor regulations to allow me to keep my money. I just need you Dems to stop trying to take it.


KK, we'll take away your health insurance plan, social security retirement, and any right to claim unemployment should your boss (every boss has a boss) fire you for a bullshit reason and force you to train your replacement.

You don't want to be a drag on society, do you?


I pay for my health insurance. How do you propose to take it away? You might as well threaten to take away my car insurance. I do not rely on Social Security. I have my own retirement plan. Anyone who relies on Social Security is a fool. I am not worried about finding another job. I already know three other places I can go to work and make the same amount of money. I have literally talked to them, feeling them out. In my line of business they are desperate for people with my skill set.

So please tell me which government regulations allow me to keep my money. Name them
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your job requires you to pay for your own health insurance plan out-of-pocket, you need to find a new job. If they're truly desperate for your skill set and experience, then they can provide health insurance as well. Especially if the job is lucrative.

Nevertheless, my entire point is that worker protections protect everyone, not just some "laborers." Unless you're the CEO, businesses can always look for unethical reasons to fire somebody, and labor laws help prevent the abuse of employees. Otherwise, businesses would have free rein to do anything they want.

You could become disabled at any time due to a car accident or illness. Without protections for the disabled, businesses could fire people for having a disability, even when it does not affect job performance.

It's easy to think "well these regulations are a waste of time and money" until you find yourself in a situation where regulations protect your livelihood.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
If your job requires you to pay for your own health insurance plan out-of-pocket, you need to find a new job.


Every health insurance plan will require you to pay premiums out-of-pocket; there are no plans which are 100% paid by the employer. The only plan which does not have premiums is "self pay" and that is available only to the very wealthy. You may choose to disbelieve me if you so desire but I was an actuarial analyst at one time so I know how insurance is structured.

Businesses don't need unethical reasons to fire someone. They can always claim "we are restructuring", make your job redundant, then let you go for that reason and they may do this at any time. Labor laws do not protect against that.

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What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

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Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pay $130 per month for health insurance. That includes dental and vision and disability. Thatís considerably less than a dayís pay. Iím not quitting my job over that.

Iím not against all regulations, I just donít understand the hard on you Leftists have for them, such that you canít even give our capitalist civilization or the individualís effort any credit whatsoever. You have to talk down our economic system and sing the praises of government, shitting all over someone elseís success just to make yourselves feel better. I just donít understand this bitterness and lack of gratitude for living in the greatest time and civilization to have ever existed. Your guy won the election. Are you all ever going to be happy?

Maybe your problem is that you all are looking for happiness in the wrong place. You act like life would be unlivable without government regulations. But happiness does not come from government regulations. You canít legislate happiness
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
I just donít understand this bitterness and lack of gratitude for living in the greatest time and civilization to have ever existed. Your guy won the election. Are you all ever going to be happy?


The other side is never going to be happy until we are all equal--all equally poor and all equally dependent upon the Federal Government for our very survival, that is. They want every State to look like California with hordes of homeless and feces on the public sidewalks.
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What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

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Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
The other side is never going to be happy until we are all equal--all equally poor and all equally dependent upon the Federal Government for our very survival, that is. They want every State to look like California with hordes of homeless and feces on the public sidewalks.
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
That is why I typically refer to it as the Nanny State--an all-powerful government that punishes people via taxes, essentially tells people what they may or may not do, and which is supported by people who are either too lazy or too stupid to take control of their own life. That form of government will eventually happen here as the "everyone gets a participation trophy" generation become political leaders.
So what's the plan? You know it's wrong. You know it's coming. You are not remotely alone in thinking these things. Lenin and Mao lead their people to bloodshed and atrocities seldom seen. Z calls this is "the greatest time and civilization to have ever existed", and it's going to end horrifically. You two are way high up in the intelligence percentile, and see the truth of every issue discussed here more clearly and quickly than anyone else. Sitting here posting isn't going to help. What's the solution? Can't run off to Galt's Gulch, wait if out, and reemerge to build paradise. Not only do you lose all the fruits of your labors when you go, but there's never a time when the wait is over.

What's the fucking solution?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
So what's the plan? You know it's wrong. You know it's coming. You are not remotely alone in thinking these things. Lenin and Mao lead their people to bloodshed and atrocities seldom seen. Z calls this is "the greatest time and civilization to have ever existed", and it's going to end horrifically. You two are way high up in the intelligence percentile, and see the truth of every issue discussed here more clearly and quickly than anyone else. Sitting here posting isn't going to help. What's the solution? Can't run off to Galt's Gulch, wait if out, and reemerge to build paradise. Not only do you lose all the fruits of your labors when you go, but there's never a time when the wait is over.

What's the fucking solution?


Let the divorce happen and wait them out. They can attack each other and confiscate then redistribute each other's money for only so long, after which they will run out of businesses to burn and money to steal.
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What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

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Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not just "each other's" money that will be confiscated. It's yours too. You will not enjoy the fruits of your labors.

And when the businesses have all been burned, and the money has all been stolen, and a new system arises, will it be one that you want? What if it's the one China has? How many systems are possible that you approve of, and how many that you do not? What are the odds that what comes next will be to your liking?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
It's not just "each other's" money that will be confiscated. It's yours too. You will not enjoy the fruits of your labors.

And when the businesses have all been burned, and the money has all been stolen, and a new system arises, will it be one that you want? What if it's the one China has? How many systems are possible that you approve of, and how many that you do not? What are the odds that what comes next will be to your liking?


Once the divorce happens, they won't be able to confiscate money or kill businesses here, only in their own new smaller country.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Divorce" is an entirely unsuitable paradigm for what is being described. These are not two individuals who can annul their partnership, divide the responsibilities / assets and go their separate ways.

Nor is it simply dissolving the Union and states devolving into new nations. Even if the divisions fell on discrete state lines, the result would be balkanization of the former USA, since the resulting countries would not be geographically contiguous.

Unfortunately, even that situation is an oversimplification. The divisions aren't geographic; we are every bit as much a homogenous country on these issues as we are on race, religion, orientation, or what have you. Folks of every stripe are everywhere. We can't realistically achieve the mass resettlement a political division would require, nor suppress the remaining political minorities. If we were to contemplate doing such a division based on any of the the other characteristics mentioned, we would be violating our country's fundamental principles, would we not?

Balkanization, indeed. Wouldn't Putin (among others) relish us going down that path? Maybe even nudging the process along?

Not to sound too much like Rodney King, but Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Playing by the rules, not ignoring them, might also go over well.

Zero points for advocating that it all be burnt to the ground because you think you can come out of it OK. Kevin Landwaster, much?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is just a shorthand term for what happens when a relationship has reached the point of irreconcilable differences and when the two parties involved are not willing to find any common ground any more. I am not saying that it would be easy or that it would be over quickly but it is definitely inevitable. There is no way that people who identify as "Progressive" will tolerate being with or finding common ground with "Trump Supporters".

I argued against the hyper-polarization, myself, to no avail--the parties involved want to make the situation bad for the other side and want them to overreact so that they can blame the other side for the fallout.

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