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President Trump (Part 2)
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
Trump has become political poison.


That is exactly why he would never win the nomination in 2024--no one would want that shit again.

aTOMiC wrote:
If I were king of Earth I would overhaul the entire process.


I concur--we should be choosing the best candidates, not putting leadership of the country onto an episode of The Weakest Link. That is how you get moderately-weak, appeals-to-the-most-people type candidates who suck.

sgt.null wrote:
Insurrection must be punished. Impeach Trump.


The House is working on it. Some Republicans are also expected to vote for impeachment.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
ur-Nanothnir wrote:
Trump has become political poison.


That is exactly why he would never win the nomination in 2024--no one would want that shit again.


Hopefully. I can't say I am very optimistic about that.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, I was just wondering if anyone can confirm this.

The BBC is reporting that only a simple majority in the senate is needed to bar Trump from holding future office.

If that's the case, then it is very likely to happen because we will have a Democrat majority in the Senate + at least a few Republicans backing such a move.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's official: Trump has been impeached.

I guess Rudy Giuliani was right about the "Trial by Combat." Half right, at least.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see any indication of *that* (your earlier comment via the BBC). Being found guilty at an impeachment trial does prevent one from holding futue elected office, but censure does not. Censure is very likely in the Senate.

See, House? I told you last year that if you wanted to impeach someone all you had to do was get together and hold a vote--it did not take weeks of investigation and testimony.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently the BBC is referring to §3 of the 14th amendment.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
Apparently the BBC is referring to §3 of the 14th amendment.


Quote:
3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.


First, one would have to successfully present the case that anyone engaged in insurrection or rebellion. Now, everyone has an opinion about that but only a Court could decide such a matter.

At face value, Biden, as part of Obama's Administration, gave "aid or comfort" to Iran, a sworn enemy of the United States, via the JCPoA which was not a treaty ratified by the Senate. That would disallow him from holding public office unless Congress votes to remove that disability. Again, personal opinions don't matter--a court would have to rule as to whether or not that clause applies to Biden.

Technically, it would also apply to any politician who supported the CHAZ people--they declared themselves not to be under the jurisdiction of the United States.

It is highly unlikely this clause takes effect, in any event.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, it sounds a little sketchy.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wosbald wrote:
+JMJ+

TheFallen wrote:
[…]

So why, pray tell, is Mark P Shea any better? Where's his right to the moral high ground?


"Better" than Right-Wing Fascists?

AFAICT, he's not a Fascist, either of the Right or the Left. This, all by its lonesome, seems like a check in the plus-column of one's moral cred.

If he ever embraces Left-Fascism, then I'll hafta recalculate at that point, I 'spose.
You miss my point, Wos - hopefully unwittingly. I was not referring to anyone's political leanings, but instead to the nature of their rhetoric.

My point was that the numerous agenda-led examples of hyperbole and knowing misrepresentation littered throughout Shea's op-ed piece of polemic which you copy 'n' pasted above constitute the exact self-same tactics of demagoguery used by Trump. Shea criticises Trump in the harshest terms for utilising such - which would have been all well and good... if only he then hadn't spent most of his outpouring of vitriol employing the exact same methods himself.

So both Shea and Trump are propagating lies. Ergo my question stands - given the above, how can Shea's pre-judged and partisan burblings be taken in the least seriously when he is clearly and self-evidently such a blatant hypocrite?

Nope, absolutely zero moral cred due, I'm afraid.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

TheFallen wrote:
You miss my point, Wos - hopefully unwittingly. I was not referring to anyone's political leanings, but instead to the nature of their rhetoric.

My point was that the numerous agenda-led examples of hyperbole and knowing misrepresentation littered throughout Shea's op-ed piece of polemic which you copy 'n' pasted above constitute the exact self-same tactics of demagoguery used by Trump. Shea criticises Trump in the harshest terms for utilising such - which would have been all well and good... if only he then hadn't spent most of his outpouring of vitriol employing the exact same methods himself.

So both Shea and Trump are propagating lies. Ergo my question stands - given the above, how can Shea's pre-judged and partisan burblings be taken in the least seriously when he is clearly and self-evidently such a blatant hypocrite?

Nope, absolutely zero moral cred due, I'm afraid.


Seems to me that I understood the first time 'round.

The probable solution to your puzzlement is that I don't see Fascism as a "political leaning" — a legitimate political option — deserving of respectful, studied consideration. Deserving of theoretical deconstruction and moral diagnosis, perhaps, but not of a hallowed niche carved into the pantheon of our national discourse. In short, I see no "bothsiderism" in the Fascist/Liberal Democracy divide. I can only imagine that neither does Shea. (And perhaps, neither do you, so please don't feel like I'm trying to paint you into a corner.)

But thanx for further clarifying. Such is always helpful to the convo. Very Happy






*This doesn't mean to say that the "Alts" (whether Left or Right) don't bring up good points or have legitimate concerns. Because they do. Rather, it's the incautious theoretical framework which often informs their worldview and the compromised solutions toward which they are often impelled which ought spark resistance.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Daily Show releases a 3:30 montage of all of the people inciting violence since early December
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
The Daily Show releases a 3:30 montage of all of the people inciting violence since early December


https://youtu.be/zZ58hMR1RD4

Maybe your side should not have encouraged riots either?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
TheFallen wrote:
Point of order. For the bazillionth time, there was no domestic terrorism.


Hmmm, there was no coup attempt, and only technically an insurrection, but I'm not sure about this one. Is it not terrorism if your pipe-bomb isn't detonated? At the very least having pipe-bombs should be like "going equipped to commit terrorism" or something, particularly in light of the fact that the goal was to achieve a political objective, in respect of which using violence and intimidation is pretty much the definition of terrorism...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
The point of impeachment is to send a strong rebuke and bar Trump from future office.

It's a way of saving face for the country.


This prevention of him standing again was my understanding of the purpose of continuing the impeachment process after he had left office. It would be a pointless exercise otherwise (unless it was necessary in some way in respect of his future prosecution).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wosbald wrote:
+JMJ+

TheFallen wrote:
You miss my point, Wos - hopefully unwittingly. I was not referring to anyone's political leanings, but instead to the nature of their rhetoric.

My point was that the numerous agenda-led examples of hyperbole and knowing misrepresentation littered throughout Shea's op-ed piece of polemic which you copy 'n' pasted above constitute the exact self-same tactics of demagoguery used by Trump. Shea criticises Trump in the harshest terms for utilising such - which would have been all well and good... if only he then hadn't spent most of his outpouring of vitriol employing the exact same methods himself.

So both Shea and Trump are propagating lies. Ergo my question stands - given the above, how can Shea's pre-judged and partisan burblings be taken in the least seriously when he is clearly and self-evidently such a blatant hypocrite?

Nope, absolutely zero moral cred due, I'm afraid.


Seems to me that I understood the first time 'round.

The probable solution to your puzzlement is that I don't see Fascism as a "political leaning" -- a legitimate political option -- deserving of respectful, studied consideration. Deserving of theoretical deconstruction and moral diagnosis, perhaps, but not of a hallowed niche carved into the pantheon of our national discourse. In short, I see no "bothsiderism" in the Fascist/Liberal Democracy divide. I can only imagine that neither does Shea. (And perhaps, neither do you, so please don't feel like I'm trying to paint you into a corner.)

But thanx for further clarifying. Such is always helpful to the convo. Very Happy

*This doesn't mean to say that the "Alts" (whether Left or Right) don't bring up good points or have legitimate concerns. Because they do. Rather, it's the incautious theoretical framework which often informs their worldview and the compromised solutions toward which they are often impelled which ought spark resistance.
Again I am unsure on the level of your agreement with the Shea piece you copy 'n' pasted. Are you foursquare with his content?

Or do you agree with my contention that the hyperbolic rhetoric, deliberately emotive overstatements and blatant inflammatory misrepresentations used by Shea in that piece are in and of themselves "Trumpish" in nature? And yet another mark of the hyperpolarising - and frankly just downright false - agenda-led issue-framing that has permeated all of US political comment, no matter who the author may be?

This goes directly to the point I've been making for months about the creation and maintenance of a dangerously toxic and divisive atmosphere/environment brought about by the tone and content of rhetoric and narrative from ALL sides. To my very firm mind, Shea's just more of the same.

As an aside, I'm actually largely with you on fascism - I don't consider it a "political leaning" particularly - well, not in traditional terms. Instead to me, it's an abhorrent system that's promoted by extremists on all ends of the spectrum, whether knowingly or not.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

TheFallen wrote:
Again I am unsure on the level of your agreement with the Shea piece you copy 'n' pasted. Are you foursquare with his content?

Or do you agree with my contention that the hyperbolic rhetoric, deliberately emotive overstatements and blatant inflammatory misrepresentations used by Shea in that piece are in and of themselves "Trumpish" in nature? And yet another mark of the hyperpolarising - and frankly just downright false - agenda-led issue-framing that has permeated all of US political comment, no matter who the author may be?

This goes directly to the point I've been making for months about the creation and maintenance of a dangerously toxic and divisive atmosphere/environment brought about by the tone and content of rhetoric and narrative from ALL sides. To my very firm mind, Shea's just more of the same.

As an aside, I'm actually largely with you on fascism - I don't consider it a "political leaning" particularly - well, not in traditional terms. Instead to me, it's an abhorrent system that's promoted by extremists on all ends of the spectrum, whether knowingly or not.


I do not agree that Shea's argumentation is hyperbolic or disingenuous, though I can see why his rhetorical ornamentation — being much more "florid" and "emphatic" than mine — might easily lead to facile comparisons with political personages/movements rapidly approaching (🤞) their sell-by date.

Though what's interesting is that, by agreeing "largely" with me on Fascism, I'd say that you may actually be more in agreement with Shea than you might initially realize. Of course, not being an apologist for Shea, I see no reason to go to the mat for that, since either way, 'sall good.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wosbald wrote:
+JMJ+

TheFallen wrote:
Again I am unsure on the level of your agreement with the Shea piece you copy 'n' pasted. Are you foursquare with his content?

Or do you agree with my contention that the hyperbolic rhetoric, deliberately emotive overstatements and blatant inflammatory misrepresentations used by Shea in that piece are in and of themselves "Trumpish" in nature? And yet another mark of the hyperpolarising - and frankly just downright false - agenda-led issue-framing that has permeated all of US political comment, no matter who the author may be?

This goes directly to the point I've been making for months about the creation and maintenance of a dangerously toxic and divisive atmosphere/environment brought about by the tone and content of rhetoric and narrative from ALL sides. To my very firm mind, Shea's just more of the same.

As an aside, I'm actually largely with you on fascism - I don't consider it a "political leaning" particularly - well, not in traditional terms. Instead to me, it's an abhorrent system that's promoted by extremists on all ends of the spectrum, whether knowingly or not.


I do not agree that Shea's argumentation is hyperbolic or disingenuous...

Really? Seriously??? Shocked

It's look at the documented evidence time...

The Shea aticle Wos copy n pasted variously wrote:
For a slightly more detailed timeline, Sam Rocha provides a good summary which he posted the day after the terrorist attack...

That mob of killers was out for blood....

And that mob of killers, waving the Confederate and swastika banners,...

Likewise, also-now-gone-from-Twitter Rush Limbaugh praised the terrorists...

The point is the MAGA "prolife2 cult encouraged this kill crazy mob...

and then Heilman suddenly declaring the terrorist mob...

Trump and the MAGA fascists threw their worst at America in the biggest act of domestic terror since the Civil War...

this time, the corrupt GOP, for utterly selfish reason, will finally kick this terrorist to the curb...

You still so sure Shea's rhetoric is neither hyperbolic nor disingenous? Dude, it could not be any more over-exaggerated, more agenda-led and more spun if it tried.

And that's to utterly ignore the fact that this "kill crazy mob" of "domestic terrorists" who were "out for blood", this pack of well-armed paramilitaries actually killed just one person. And with a fire extinguisher. And probably unintentionally (though it would still be murder of some degree).

Plus... "the biggest act of domestic terror since the Civil War"? Erm...

Oklahoma City bombing in 1994, anyone? (168 killed).
Or the Fort Hood shootings in 2009? (13 killed).
Or the San Bernadino attack in 2015? (14 killed).
Or the Orlando nightclub shootings in 2016? (49 killed).

You seriously don't see the slightest sign of hyperbole here??? If so, words fail me.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

QAnon conspiracy theorists believe that Trump communicated to them in Morse Code during his recent televised address to the nation.

The message they think he sent was "Q."
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
QAnon conspiracy theorists believe that Trump communicated to them in Morse Code during his recent televised address to the nation.

The message they think he sent was "Q."


You seem to be the only here who believes in Q.
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