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The Illearth War: GILDEN-FIRE (Forward & Haruchai)
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I realize this is a log-dead thread, but...I can't help myself here.
Quote:
Awesome summation F&F - have you ever wondered why there appears to be the need to recite the vow repeatedly?


Well, one could argue that the Vow was blown when Kevin enacted the Desecration, and the Bloodguard (and the whole Haruchai race) not only do not accept failure, but have a very stringent definition of failure. Therefore, I find it completely believable that Korik would recite the Vow on a very regular basis to remind him of that failure, and to insure that it doesn't happen again.

In fact, you can see that determination not to fail in Bannor's actions in LFB. The Bloodguard have no need for weapons, yet it's Bannor that places TC's ring on the Staff of Law to call the Fire Lions to save the quest (and the Lords, their charges).

Fractional bow to Fist for the excellent post. Fractional bow to Durris who guided me here.
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Do not believe that we forget. In all the ages of service, it was the grief of the Bloodguard that they gave no direct battle to Corruption.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been visiting this site since early 2009, became a member of KW in late 2013, and I CAN'T BELIEVE I've never gotten around to reading Fist's dissection until now! Shocked Embarassed Better late than never! Mr. Green

Anyway, terrific work by Fist, I must say!!! Thumbs Up Very Happy

Fist and Faith wrote:
The mind-speech is interesting. It would seem to be much like normal speech. I particularly like Sill's silent shrug. You can just hear the Bloodguard shrugging in their minds all the time, and I'm glad to see SRD put one into this brief telepathic conversation. Still, I get the impression that the telepathy of the Haruchai can be other than these conversations. I always figured it was their telepathy that lets them remember stories in great detail thousands of years later. Brinn and Cail knew everything about the Bloodguard, Covenant, and everything else that we know about. I figure they can all sort of join minds at times, a uni-mind, or Borg collective, so that everybody knows everything. If they do this years later, any detail that one Haruchai may have forgotten is reabsorbed. Just a thought.


When I first read The Wounded Land, I was so gratified that the Haruchai remembered white gold, Covenant, and Earthpower when all the people of the Land had forgotten, that it just seemed too good to be true! But the communal memory through mind-speech explains it all quite nicely, I must say.

Again, well done, Fist!
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just noticed there was s post here. Thanks for the kind words. I had a lot of fun with this.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just looking at this thread because of a FB post, and I noticed something that I think is very cool and interestingly, which I had never thought of before.
Quote:
Therefore that night the army from the Westron Mountains gathered under the south wall of Revelstone. All the Haruchai joined their minds together and out of their common strength forged the metal of the Vow - unalloyed and unanswerable, accessible to no appeal or flaw, unambergrised by the promise of any uncorrupt end: a Vow like the infernal oath upon the river of death which binds even the gods. This they wrought out of the extremity and innocence of their hearts, to match the handiwork of the Giants and the mastery of the Lords. As they spoke the hot words - Ha-man rual tayba-sah carab ho-eeal - the ground seemed to grow hot and cognizant under their feet, as if the Earthpower were drawing near the surface to hear them. And when they brought their Vow around full circle, sealing it so that there was no escape, the rocks on which they stood thundered, and fire ran through them, sealing their bones to the promise they had made.
How crazy is that?!? I always noticed the words, and understood the significance. But how remarkably out of place! The author broke the fourth wall, referencing something entirely outside the story, to give the reader an understanding in a way that could probably have been given with other words, but not as quickly/easily.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know what that river thing might be a reference to.

That it's inappropriate is not unexpected. This is an unfinished and discarded chapter.

Any time the people of the land refer to "gods", I'm sure it's an error. Their sense of self-determination is essential to the story.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Greek gods swore oaths on the river Styx. I don't know what else he could be talking about.

And yes, I'm passingly familiar with the chapters non-canonic nature. However, I find it very interesting that he did this. I actually like it a lot!
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought that it might be Styx... process of elimination, really, but I am not sure what oaths are involved with it.

This is another Bodach Glas!

If I knew what the oath was, I would know what SRD was trying to say here.

google .... google ....

Quote:
In the waters of the river Styx, the Olympian Gods took oaths; if they should happen to break an oath, they suffered a severe punishment: they were forced to drink from the river and had to go without ambrosia and nectar, the food of the gods, for a year; after this time, the oath-breaker was forbidden to attend the assemblies of the other gods for another nine years.

Well, that just doesn't seem to express the oomph that SRD was going for. What's a few years of detention to a god?

google .... google ....

Quote:
In Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, the gods swear by the water of the Styx as their most binding oath.

Okay, if we consider it this way - the most binding oath that a god could make - then perhaps it conveys something about the Haruchai Vow.

Quote:
"It would be unthinkable for any god to break an oath sworn on the river Styx. Because the cosmological consequences would be disastrous. [...] No god would ever risk breaking such an oath where they would lose their power. That's why when the gods make vows on it, you can be sure they won’t break it."

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, of course. But my point is, he was referencing Greek gods swearing Oaths on the River Styx. In this chapter. The chapter that was removed because it did not have a point of view character from the "real world". That is, a character who might possibly know who the Greek gods were and what it meant to swear an oath on the River Styx. Donaldson did not write it because it was in the thoughts of any of the characters in the chapter. The only reason he wrote it was so that the reader, because of meta-knowledge, would understand the seriousness of the moment.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know you know. I am just figuring it out now.

The ironic thing about this is that, a little bit later, the Haruchai do break their vow, leaving Covenant (and the reader) to wonder how it all fell apart so easily.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, they lasted longer than the Greek gods did. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
I was just looking at this thread because of a FB post, and I noticed something that I think is very cool and interestingly, which I had never thought of before.
Quote:
Therefore that night the army from the Westron Mountains gathered under the south wall of Revelstone. All the Haruchai joined their minds together and out of their common strength forged the metal of the Vow - unalloyed and unanswerable, accessible to no appeal or flaw, unambergrised by the promise of any uncorrupt end: a Vow like the infernal oath upon the river of death which binds even the gods. This they wrought out of the extremity and innocence of their hearts, to match the handiwork of the Giants and the mastery of the Lords. As they spoke the hot words - Ha-man rual tayba-sah carab ho-eeal - the ground seemed to grow hot and cognizant under their feet, as if the Earthpower were drawing near the surface to hear them. And when they brought their Vow around full circle, sealing it so that there was no escape, the rocks on which they stood thundered, and fire ran through them, sealing their bones to the promise they had made.
How crazy is that?!? I always noticed the words, and understood the significance. But how remarkably out of place! The author broke the fourth wall, referencing something entirely outside the story, to give the reader an understanding in a way that could probably have been given with other words, but not as quickly/easily.


Good catch, Fist! SRD is indeed breaking the fourth wall here, but it certainly makes the Vow seem more fearsome, and ominous in the potential consequences of its breaking.
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