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A Tradable Quota System for Air Miles

 
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 7:40 am    Post subject: A Tradable Quota System for Air Miles Reply with quote

One of the major problems with the Great Reset idea (that henceforth, all legislation in areas where it is pertinent, should have a 'green' element built into it, as the world economy restarts post Covid) is that it seems to be a given that in order to curb the most egregiously damaging of activity - think flying and use of cars etc - pricing/taxation will be used as the primary mechanism whereby individual behaviour will be modified in order to achieve the desired results. It goes without saying that this will disproportionately effect the poorest in our societies as they find themselves 'priced out of the market' in respect of the things that they are and are not able to do.

So in respect of flying for leisure purposes - holidays, visiting family abroad, travel to second homes and the like - it is perforce the lower end of the income bracket that will find themselves unable to do the things that they have previously been used to being able to do, albeit rarely and as a 'luxury' occurrence, hard saved for. In a recent study it was found that the richest one percent of the world's people accounted for more than double the carbon output of the 3.1 billion people who make up the poorest half of the world population. While this statistic is deliberately tailored for maximum impact (as it were), it remains the case that if flying for leisure purposes is to be curtailed by price-fixing measures, the higher ones income, the more one will be able to simply absorb these price rises in order to be able to carry on ones life just as before.

The stoics will no doubt shrug their shoulders at this and say, " When has it ever been any different", and observe that if the necessary cuts in air related carbon emissions are to be achieved then someone has to pay for them (in terms of stopping flying) and that it will be the poor is just simply the way it has to be. I, on the other hand am not so accepting of this. Why, I say, should the lower income brackets be made to shoulder a disproportionate amount of the burden of setting the world to rights (in terms of climate change) than the wealthy, when there is a perfectly good example of how an alternative mechanism could be set up, based on the quota systems we have seen used in respect of milk production, of fish landings, of numerous other products, of the food supply system.

Taking the dairy industry in the UK as a model for such an introduction, here is how it worked. The UK back in what, the seventies (?), found itself overproducing milk which the Milk Marketing Board of the day was obligated to buy from the producers under the terms of previous legislation and the Common Agricultural Policy agreements of the EU. In order to counter this, the administration of the day set a cap on the level of milk they wanted to see produced in litres, for the whole of the UK, and then divided this into individual aliquots of quota that were distributed amongst the producers. If any producer wanted to increase his production above his alloted quota, he had to buy the quota he required on an open market system that priced it, just as shares are priced today on the stock market, according to the demand for quota and the amount available on the market to buy. In this way the total milk production of the country could never go above that which the Government had decided was to be the case.

Applying this to the allocation of air miles, let's say that the Government would decide upon the total number of leisure air miles it was prepared to see flown by residents of the country in any given year (such that the cuts in the pre-pandemic levels of travel required were realised) and would then divide this into equal sized aliquots, allocated to all registered voters/occupants of the country. This aliquot would represent the total number of miles of flight that this individual could take in any one year. A trading floor would be set up to allow those who did not require to use their air-miles, in which they could sell the whole or part thereof, according to the price of the day, to other individuals who might require more than their given aliquot would allow them. This would allow those who don't commonly fly for whatever reason, to realise some capital from the sale of their miles, and force those who want to carry on as they did before all of this started to do so - but at a cost that was commensurate with what they were doing and helped to benefit those less fortunate than themselves who were unable to bear the cost of being 'frequent flyers'. As with the milk quotas referred to above, the trading price of air miles on any given day would be reflective of the current supply/demand situation at the time. Air miles could be rolled over, saved and accumulated from year to year, used as effective savings pots and investment/trading opportunities just as are ordinary stocks and shares in the financial markets we currently have.

I'm absolutely well aware that nothing like this is going to happen. But make no mistake, this is not because it couldn't be done. It will be rather because it doesn't suit the movers and shakers that such equity be put into the hands of the small people that it won't be done.
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Years from now, people are going to look back on this time and laugh sarcastically at everyone who worries about being "green". These politicians don't actually give a shit about the planet. No, their only goals are power and the ability to line their pockets from their quiet investments in the companies that will get contracts from "green projects".

That being said, some things make sense because they are improvements over previous technologies. Everyone who owns a house should line the roof with solar panels, wind and solar farms are good things (Zarathustra will disagree with me on that) and should be expanded, and vertical farming is a wonderful idea that should be exanded everywhere.

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely agree in respect to vertical farming; I think we are also so close to being able to recreate faux meat proteins now that in short order there will be no justification for the continuance of the inefficient and cruel practice of livestock farming. Vertical farming and lab grown meat production are between them quite capable of sustaining our current size population and quite possibly more besides (there are obviously other criteria that might make you think as to whether you want to see an expanded world population, but the fact remains that it will not be the Malthusian break-wall of food availability that will limit us.).
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the thread title I thought this was spam.

Carry on then.
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
Absolutely agree in respect to vertical farming; I think we are also so close to being able to recreate faux meat proteins now that in short order there will be no justification for the continuance of the inefficient and cruel practice of livestock farming.


We may be able to produce Faux meat proteins but we nothing is a substitute for the taste of a nicely marbled steak, med rare. Big Grin
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would not necessarily call livestock farming "cruel" despite the fact that some animals are being killed, but I do agree with "inefficient"--it can take several years before animals are ready. We have had livestock farming for, what, 20,000 years now so we aren't going to get rid of it any time soon.

The problem with trying to create proteins is that if you make a mistake you could make a new protein that kills. Alzheimer's is caused by a rogue protein attacking the brain tissue, for example.

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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you talking about prion proteins Hashi? I know spongiform encephalopathies have such proteins implicated in their etiology and some dementias involve the development of vacuoles similar to that of the spongiform brain tissue. I imagine what you are referring to is tied up in that kind of thing somewhere (I know nothing about the specific causes of Alzheimer's disease). But yes - there are always risks with new technologies, and replacement mear protein development is no different. But we do know enough about the structure and composition of natural meat proteins to be able to have a good shot at mimicking them, SB's comments not withstanding.

The cruelty of livestock farming is certainly a debatable point: I know such farming intimately having spent a lifetime on farms, actually involved in the work. Maybe this has made me more sensitive, but the castration, disbudding, dehorning and subsequent killing (with its associated transportation and lairage) is not without it's very nasty aspects, even though few people ever see this and effort is made to keep it to a minimum.
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
Are you talking about prion proteins Hashi?


Indeed I am.

People who think farming is neat and clean are, for lack of any better word, stupid.

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed.

On the great reset .. I lol Laughing whenever I hear this said.

But its probably because I live in rural Oz and COVID hasn't been a thing here. Yes we have implemented safeguards months ago which we have pretty much not seen for almost a year now.

So I dont have the same degree of appreciation of COVID that those who have had neighbours with it .. died of it etc.

mmm ... this might sound disrespectful but that is not my intent .. nor is it my intent to downplay a very real public health threat .. its just that less than 30k cases and less than 1k deaths as a result. And zero cases or deaths in a 100km radius of where I live.
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The pandemic was always going to be used to usher in the changes that are believed to be crucial to our getting to grips with climate change; whether we believe individually in the veracity of the claims in respect of man made climate change is neither here nor there - the established scientific advice is that it is for real and as with the Covid threat, the collective Governments of the world have decided now is the time to act on it.

Behind the scenes, the movers and shakers will be arranging their pieces so that any changes made in the meeting of these demands have will have minimal negative effect on their interests, and if possible significant positive ones. The interests of the man or woman in the street will have little influence on their thinking as they pontificate on this. To believe otherwise would be naïve and fly in the face of experience. The continuance of the activities of the top one percent in the face of these changes will be paid for by a curtailment of the activities of the remaining ninety-nine.
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That seems all shades of unlikely and illogical to me Im afraid Pete.

You have a conservative government and since when is Boris an environmentalist icon?

I totally agree that the Tories and even their labour counterparts are disconnected from the average joe in the street ... particularly Bozo .. he moves in entirely different circles.

And it is naive indeed to believe that nations are driven by the interests of the top 1% ... it has always been that way sadly. The interests of the 1% have always been achieved on the backs of the remaining 99% ... give or take the acuity lacking in these generalised statistics Wink
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry Sky - I'm not understanding your post properly. You seem to be saying that post is "unlikely and illogical" and then agreeing with it. (I assume there should be a 'not' in the last sentence that has been missed out, to make the first bit tie with the latter as well.)

I'm sure you already know this, but 'the great reset' has become a sort of blanket term refering to the ideas discussed, and outlined by Prince Charles in his opening speech, at the 50th meeting of the World Economic Forum attended by business leaders and political figures from around the globe, the theme of which was "rebuilding society and the economy in a sustainable way following the Covid-19 pandemic". The chief thing to take away from this is that the proposal was made that henceforth no Government legislation would be passed that did not have, built into it, a 'green' objective as it's core principle.

By pure peer pressure, if for no other reasons, even environmentally philistine leaders like Boris Johnson will be forced into towing the green-line, and I simply make the observation (that you seem to agree with) that it is the little guy in the street that will perforce be made to shoulder the cost (in terms of both money and change of lifestyle) of this. Furthermore, I'd add that the cost of this disparate shouldering of the burden will be felt just as much in the outbacks of Australia and Cornwall as on the streets of Sydney and London.

I'm not getting where the "unlikely and illogical" comes in here?

Confused
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that may be because I was agreeing with a statement Hashi made about farming and was flagging issues with the statements you had made lol Laughing sorry to say.

Pete, to my mind it is "unlikely and illogical" to think that the pandemic .. has any part in any environment change agenda.

I don't see Johnson or any conservative movement ... being a puppet of some illusive green movement .... at all.

Ironic really cuz ... if Johnson/the tories were smart they would prioritise climate change policies ... to assure a positive healthy future for all.
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry Sky - there is nothing "illusive" about the deliberations of the World Economic Forum.

The whole point of their program at the 2020 event (which Prince Charles addressed and I refer to above) was to examine the opportunities that the effective halting of economic activity on a global scale due to Covid, offered in terms of establishment of a new green agenda upon the restarting of the same. The connection between the former and the latter is .........well, it just is. That was what it was all about. A case in point would be air traffic around the world; it is on the basis of Covid that it has been reduced by ninety whatever percent; it is on the basis of global climate change and carbon emissions that it will not be allowed to return to its former levels.

At the end of the day it will have nothing to do with Johnson and the Tories being smart; as with their handling of the pandemic, they will follow the trend set by the rest of the world, heeding the advice of the bulk of environmental scientists and advisors, meeting the targets (or trying to at least) set at events like the forthcoming COP26 talks in Glasgow - or risk entering into a pariah status in the eyes of the rest of the world, which they will not do.

(Sorry - still not clear; which issues were you 'flagging' with statements I had made on farming: we seem to be running two separate threads of discussion here - and not finding much common ground in either! Wink. I'm guessing it might be to do with my comments in respect of the innate cruelty of the meat production industry. Well, we are both people who have some experience in the field and we must each speak as we find; in my case, and speaking for the rural areas of Cornwall in respect of which I have firsthand knowledge, I can say without fear of contradiction that what I say is true. There are no pleasant ways to do the things that must be done in order to cater for the food needs of sixty seven million people (in respect of beef/pork/lamb and chicken etc) without access to hugely more acerage of land than is available for the purpose. Hence intensive rearing practices, battery farming, crating and stalling of animals and the unnatural practices that must be applied in order to make these things work. That the cruelty is minimised to the lowest level that the practices allow for I accept (this is good business policy if nothing else because animals that are suffering do not thrive in the best of circumstances) - but even so, any aquaintance with the industry (in my neck of the woods at least) requires that you 'look your meat in the eye' and acknowledge the reality of what you do. If I was not prepared to 'own' this reality, I'd give up eating meat tomorrow and become a vegetarian (and I have thought about it).)
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya it sounds rather ironic does it not .. that Johnson led on Brexit to assure UK freedom from foreign regulatory oversight and restrictions and yet you say Johnson is basically at the mercy of the "trends set by the rest of the world" Wink

I am flagging what I perceive as a disconnect in this proposed "logic"

It isn't entirely congruent is it?

The World Economic Forum and Klaus Schwab's great reset is about I thought developing sustainability in socio-economic systems going forward. Using what we have all already learned from the current global pandemic. Globally preparing for a better way forward the next time we face similar challenges.

Quote:
Left unaddressed, these crises, together with COVID-19, will deepen and leave the world even less sustainable, less equal, and more fragile. Incremental measures and ad hoc fixes will not suffice to prevent this scenario. We must build entirely new foundations for our economic and social systems.

The level of cooperation and ambition this implies is unprecedented. But it is not some impossible dream. In fact, one silver lining of the pandemic is that it has shown how quickly we can make radical changes to our lifestyles. Almost instantly, the crisis forced businesses and individuals to abandon practices long claimed to be essential, from frequent air travel to working in an office.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could be wrong but it doesn't sound particularly shocking or inappropriately focussed to me.

Quote:
The Great Reset agenda would have three main components.

[1.] The first would steer the market toward fairer outcomes.

To this end, governments should improve coordination (for example, in tax, regulatory, and fiscal policy), upgrade trade arrangements, and create the conditions for a “stakeholder economy.” At a time of diminishing tax bases and soaring public debt, governments have a powerful incentive to pursue such action.

Moreover, governments should implement long-overdue reforms that promote more equitable outcomes.

Depending on the country, these may include changes to wealth taxes, the withdrawal of fossil-fuel subsidies, and new rules governing intellectual property, trade, and competition.

[2.] The second component of a Great Reset agenda would ensure that investments advance shared goals, such as equality and sustainability.

Here, the large-scale spending programs that many governments are implementing represent a major opportunity for progress. The European Commission, for one, has unveiled plans for a €750 billion ($826 billion) recovery fund. The US, China, and Japan also have ambitious economic-stimulus plans.

Rather than using these funds, as well as investments from private entities and pension funds, to fill cracks in the old system, we should use them to create a new one that is more resilient, equitable, and sustainable in the long run. This means, for example, building “green” urban infrastructure and creating incentives for industries to improve their track record on environmental, social, and governance (ESG) metrics.

[3.] The third and final priority of a Great Reset agenda is to harness the innovations of the Fourth Industrial Revolution to support the public good, especially by addressing health and social challenges.

During the COVID-19 crisis, companies, universities, and others have joined forces to develop diagnostics, therapeutics, and possible vaccines; establish testing centers; create mechanisms for tracing infections; and deliver telemedicine. Imagine what could be possible if similar concerted efforts were made in every sector.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sustainability is attainable, which is why I support wind and solar as much as I do, an idea with which Zarathustra always takes exception.

Equality....*sigh* in one sense equality is not attainable. Even if everyone in the world made exactly the same amount of money, was given the same type of house, the same car, etc. someone would find some reason to be jealous of someone else and the claim will be made "that person has more than I do". Consider a classroom full of people chosen at random and that I am one of those people; the class is on a subject about which none of us have ever learned anything before--ancient Babylonian language or something else equally obscure. It is likely that I will do better than most of them simply because of the efficiency with which my brain processes information--we all started off equal but we will never finish the class equally.

Equality from a legal sense is something we already have.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually wholeheartedly agree re equality - it is an unattainable element - equity is far more practicable.

And yes.
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh and to qualify my comment - equality legally speaking accounts for the legal framework - not it’s practical application which is where we see disparities
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