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Fist and Faith
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe white Americans shouldn't have been teaching that black Americans were lesser than white Americans.

Maybe white Americans should apologize for slavery?

How about you start sgt?

Or, how about, since neither of you: had anything to do with it; has (to my knowledge) ever expressed any regrets that it ended; has expressed any desire to start it up again - we all just try to do better from here out?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to get right down to it, when the slave trade begun, the people in what is now the US were British citizens, so if we're going to talk about the Original Sin of slavery here, let's start putting the blame where it belongs. Very Happy
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Skyweir wrote:
Rodney King was caught on video being kicked and beaten to death - none of those police officers were investigated.


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So if it were up to us (who couldn’t give a fuck about ignorant unvaccinated folk dying in large number) 😉 perhaps that’s purely how evolution will sort out intellectually deficient out of the general population.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sky - I will be posting the history of the Democrats soon.

Fist - my ancestors were not slave holders. Only one political party believed in the slave trade. And even though I am not a Republican, I do tend to vote along their political lines.

And I'm going to need you (per your rules) support that statement that I have never expressed regret that the slave trade ended.

Why is it ok for you of all people to imply I am a racist? Why don't you have to live up to the standards you imposed?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I said you didn't ever express regret that slavery ended. Nobody here has.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
I said you didn't ever express regret that slavery ended. Nobody here has.
That is a lie.

Not a single person here has lamented the end of slavery, nor wistfully posted about the good ol' days when blacks were property. In fact, "evil" is the word most associated with that heinous practice.
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Skyweir wrote:
Rodney King was caught on video being kicked and beaten to death - none of those police officers were investigated.


Skyweir wrote:
So if it were up to us (who couldn’t give a fuck about ignorant unvaccinated folk dying in large number) 😉 perhaps that’s purely how evolution will sort out intellectually deficient out of the general population.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's exactly what I'm saying. Nobody here has ever expressed regret that slavery ended.

What is so difficult to understand about this?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith makes a fair point.

If you look at any single issue, people can claim that their objections are based on a principal, and how can you say that this is wrong?

But when, over years of discussion, someone has denied that every single manifestation of racial injustice exists, and they have objected to every single method of reforming racial injustice, and they have disparaged the character of every single person arguing for reform, and they have mischaracterized every single agent struggling to make a change, then you begin to see that there is a dark motive.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That wasn't my point. I said Sarge never expressed regret that slavery ended, and nobody else here has either. Sarge then demands that I quote where he did say he regretted it, and Nihilo says it's a lie because nobody ever did.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
Maybe white Americans shouldn't have been teaching that black Americans were lesser than white Americans.


I started school in 1975, in poor rural Louisiana, and none of the schools in that area were teaching anything akin to that. In fact, no one has taught anything like that since at least the 1930s (when eugenics was still a thing).
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If you do not support your accusation at any time, I will delete your post.


Do unto others as you would have them do unto you and you shouldn't have any problems.

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Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm saying that, if we want demand an apology from whatever group is responsible, that group could be white Americas, or America. Far better to work on the problems we still face.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
I'm saying that, if we want demand an apology from whatever group is responsible, that group could be white Americas, or America. Far better to work on the problems we still face.


I don't have a problem with some sort of official apology being given because clearly a grievous wrong was committed. The problems with an apology, though are these:

it was never the official position of the United States government to have a policy of slavery; the worst it did was not outlawing it until 1863. Since it was not a stated policy, should it issue an apology? Or should the apology be simply for not ending it until then?

"white Americans" did not own slaves. Some white Americans owned slaves....but not very many. How many white Europeans came to the United States and spent their entire life being too poor to own a slave, lived in places where slavery was already outlawed, or came here after 1863 and it was not longer legal?

to whom should the apology be addressed? all black Americans, even the ones whose ancestors were never enslaved here, either because they lived in areas where it was outlawed or they did not arrive until after it was outlawed?

what about a white person (or at least someone who identifies thusly) who has black ancestry, some of whom were enslaved?

I suppose the only way forward would be some sort of apology from the United States government for not abolishing the practice of slavery when the Constitution was drafted and ratified--even I admit that as its great failure. These are some of the same questions I ask about reparations, as well; reparations will have to come from Congress but it is going to take a very long time to figure who, how much, and in what form.

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If you do not support your accusation at any time, I will delete your post.


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Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
That's exactly what I'm saying. Nobody here has ever expressed regret that slavery ended.

What is so difficult to understand about this?
Your wording, and the context of this with regards to everything else you've said about racism. My mistake though, I was reading in to what you typed.

I've got it now, sorry for the confusion.*






















*For those following at home, this is how you admit you made a mistake, then apologize for said mistake, then move on.
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Skyweir wrote:
Rodney King was caught on video being kicked and beaten to death - none of those police officers were investigated.


Skyweir wrote:
So if it were up to us (who couldn’t give a fuck about ignorant unvaccinated folk dying in large number) 😉 perhaps that’s purely how evolution will sort out intellectually deficient out of the general population.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No worries.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it fair to say “some Americans” in the confederate states owned slaves?

According to this alleged fact check here: [url] https://theconversation.com/american-slavery-separating-fact-from-myth-79620[/url]
Quote:
Roughly 25 percent of all Southerners owned slaves.


In the case of Texas only:
Quote:
By 1860, the Texas enslaved population was 182,566, but slaveholders represented 27 percent of the population, and controlled 68 percent of the government positions and 73 percent of the wealth.


The citing of “25%” is the concluding figure averaged out. Some states would have had larger numbers of landholders that owned slaves, some smaller, right?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
That wasn't my point. I said Sarge never expressed regret that slavery ended, and nobody else here has either. Sarge then demands that I quote where he did say he regretted it, and Nihilo says it's a lie because nobody ever did.


Sorry. I found your wording clumsy and confusing and it seemed to me that you where stating that I've never shown remorse for slavery. Even after reading the post in question I'm having trouble with it. My bad.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:27 pm    Post subject: Social Justice Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Critical race theory and Catholicism go hand in hand [Opinion]

Quote:




Image: Flickr.com/Elvert Barnes [CC BY-SA-2.0], cropped


The Bible says truth matters. Critical race theory is a truth-seeking tool.


Recently, during breakfast with a good friend, the conversation suddenly became tense when I made a comment about critical race theory (CRT). My friend felt strongly that CRT has no place in the Catholic Church; I disagreed. She went on to say that Catholics who support this theory should be officially sanctioned. I respect my long-time friend’s opinion — she is a theology professor at a prestigious Catholic university — but I could not agree. I insisted that CRT intersects easily with Catholic social teaching; in fact, CRT shines light on our journey as followers of Christ. At this, my friend pushed back her chair and left the table without even a goodbye. I stared after her in disbelief.

This incident continues to disturb and perplex me, and I’ve become increasingly concerned as I’ve recognized that my friend is not alone in her opinion. Catholic World Report claims that CRT is “divisive and harmful to the minds and hearts of young people,” because its “key, underlying assumptions are not in harmony with Catholic teaching.” The National Review expressed a similar perspective, stating that “the administrators of any Catholic school should recoil from” CRT’s tactics with its “tired atheist tropes of division and hopelessness.” Crisis Magazine insists that CRT “leads to jealousy, envy, and pride.” Many Catholics apparently believe CRT would create a “reverse racism” that typifies all white people as being irredeemably guilty of racist thoughts and actions.

As I read and listen to these viewpoints, I realize the United States is facing a crisis of knowledge — or perhaps I should say a crisis of ignorance. Many Americans (including Catholics) do not understand what CRT is and so base their ideas on inaccurate information. They fail to fact check. Many people seem to have never learned (or have forgotten) how to practice rigorous intellectual analysis and so swallow whole whatever they read or hear.

I fear many of us have divorced the spiritual from the intellectual as though they are two opposing forces rather than God-given attributes that support each other. Distrust of anything “academic” has helped create a society where lies flourish. With lazy thinking and a willingness to accept whatever extravagant falsehood comes along, society has become steeped in lies. To make matters worse, Catholics, in particular, are often so concerned with a single issue that they ignore the wider perspectives available through study and analysis.

[…]

What is critical race theory?

CRT is a form of truth-seeking. It is not some devious, anti-Christian ideology, nor is it intended to feed political partisanship. Instead, it is a practical tool that examines how issues of race intersect with law, politics, and society. It analyzes the persistence of racial inequality with rigorous evidence-based study. In doing so, it provides guideposts toward fair policies in a nation torn by racial strife.

CRT is not concerned with individual sin but speaks instead to societal sin. It speaks to the law. Historically, the law has been complicit in upholding white supremacy. This is a reality that persists regardless of individuals’ thoughts and intentions. In the second half of the 20th century, civil rights battles became nearly impossible to win in courts of law because the legal definition of racism had moved toward individual intent. In other words, a person could not be convicted of racist actions unless the court could prove undeniably that they had racist thoughts. This, of course, was nearly impossible to establish, and, meanwhile, people of color were suffering within a system that was biased against them at multiple levels, regardless of the intent of individuals. As Martin Luther King Jr. said, the law cannot address what’s inside a person’s heart, “but it can keep him from lynching me, and I think that’s pretty important.”

The law can be either an instrument of oppression or of liberation. This is not a radical, new idea; it’s the same truth the American patriots proclaimed when they shouted, “No taxation without representation!” CRT reveals how those with wealth and power have historically used the law to maintain their power. Using this perspective as its lens, CRT points to what it would take to achieve justice through altering laws in a way that then alters society. This is a thoroughly biblical stance, supported by verses such as Isaiah 10:1–2: “Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed.”

Is critical race theory Catholic?

Far from undermining Catholic faith, CRT actually intersects with Catholic social teaching, which the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops defines as “a central and essential element of our faith” that is “built on a commitment to the poor.” The USCCB goes on to describe Catholic social teaching as having its roots “in the Hebrew prophets who announced God’s special love for the poor and called God’s people to a covenant of love and justice.” Catholic social teaching, the bishops say, is “founded on the life and words of Jesus Christ, who came ‘to bring glad tidings to the poor … liberty to captives … recovery of sight to the blind’ (Lk 4:18–19), and who identified himself with ‘the least of these,’ the hungry and the stranger (cf. Mt 25:45).”

In 1961, Pope John XXIII issued Mater et Magistra (On Christianity and Social Progress), in which he stated that the church must concern “herself too with the exigencies of man’s [sic] daily life, with his livelihood and education, and his general, temporal welfare and prosperity.” These are the very exigencies with which CRT is also concerned. Pope John then went on to explain how the church should practice her social teaching:

Quote:
There are three stages which should normally be followed in the reduction of social principles into practice. First, one reviews the concrete situation; secondly, one forms a judgment on it in the light of these same principles; thirdly, one decides what in the circumstances can and should be done to implement these principles. These are the three stages that are usually expressed in the three terms: see, judge, act.


CRT gives us tools to see and judge our society, the first steps of Catholic social teaching. It is then up to us to act.

Instead of seeing CRT as a threat to the Catholic faith, we should recognize it as a powerful lens for examining who we are, both as Christians and as Americans. It sheds light on our divided nation, allowing us to see the historical factors that shaped who we are today. It helps identify what is admirable and dishonorable in our nation, and it gives a map to follow as we seek to build a better nation for ourselves and for our children. It allows us to contemplate our world and pledge to become coworkers in God’s mission of justice on earth.

[…]

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure if the Catholic Church is even Catholic anymore.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Is it fair to say “some Americans” in the confederate states owned slaves?


Yes, Skyweir, 25% is only "some" and is, in fact, a relatively small minority. In the pre-war South recall that it was a rural agrarian society, so you pretty much had two classes: ultra-rich plantation owners and dirt-poor sharecroppers/farmers. There was a small middle class but they would have existed only in the towns.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sgt.null wrote:
Sorry. I found your wording clumsy and confusing and it seemed to me that you where stating that I've never shown remorse for slavery. Even after reading the post in question I'm having trouble with it. My bad.
My intention with this:
Fist and Faith wrote:
Or, how about, since neither of you: had anything to do with it; has (to my knowledge) ever expressed any regrets that it ended; has expressed any desire to start it up again - we all just try to do better from here out?
due to the colon and semicolons, was:

-since neither of you had anything to do with it;
-since neither of you has (to my knowledge) ever expressed any regrets that it ended
-since neither of you has expressed any desire to start it up again

Figured I'd just say, in case I use that punctuation again.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist - ok. Much better. My hatred of the Democrats' Klan is long established. My contention is that Democrats need to apologize for their barbaric past so our nation can heal.
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