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How Does Evolution Produce Consciousnes/Reason?
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Zarathustra
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unobserved photons behave like waves. Observed photons behave like particles. So, yes, they do change their innate qualities dramatically upon observation.

The problem with linking this to consciousness is that "observation" in physics can also mean, "measurement," or interaction with a measurement device. That does not necessarily mean consciousness itself. But the measurement problem is itself a paradoxical, ambiguous problem, and it's not at all clear where to draw the line between measurement device and the mind using it. It's possible that any interaction between a micro, quantum state (e.g. waves) and a macro object will collapse the wave function into a particle. But how do we know until we look? Paradox.

Since we have no idea what exactly consciousness *is,* and some theories are pointing to panpsychism, I don't think we can eliminate consciousness from this mysterious event (i.e. wave collapse). The quantum world exists in an indeterminate state prior to interaction with other determinate states (i.e. macro objects). It's as if the universe itself "knows" itself in this transformation from indeterminate to determinate. In fact, this could be precisely what knowledge is: transformation from indeterminate to determinate. Prior to the wave collapse, particles can only be described in terms of probabilities. They only acquire actual properties once they interact with the macro world. This seems to be the very dividing line between the possible and the actual. The known and the unknown, or at least the knowable and the unknowable.

So what is it about reality that interaction with macro objects is necessary for particles to become actualized, rather than waves of probability? These are some of the deepest mysteries of our existence, no closer to being solved than they were 100 years ago.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
And yet, blueness comes into being.


In our heads. Wink

Zarathustra wrote:
I don't think we can eliminate consciousness from this mysterious event (i.e. wave collapse).


Agreed really. It's all in our heads. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:
And yet, blueness comes into being.


In our heads. Wink
That's my point. It only happens because of our heads. That doesn't mean it doesn't actually happen. It blueness isn't real because it's only in our consciousness, then that means our consciousness isn't real? Arguably the most interesting thing in existence, and less arguably the thing with the greatest potential, isn't real? Or somehow doesn't count?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If blueness is real, then unicorns and Frodo are real.

But if they are only real as figments of imagination, then so is blue.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I definitely lean toward neutral monism when it comes to mind and matter. But I'm also a bit of a Platonist when it comes to the Ideal. I think there is a level to reality that is distinct from the material or actual world, and yet real and objective. Our mind bridges that divide.

Blue is not a fiction. No one invented it. Just because Frodo and blue both occur in the mind as content of mental states does not mean they are both nothing more than a mental state. Blueness is related to an objective reality. Frodo is not. Blueness gives us information about the objective world. Frodo does not.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I've never been a fan of the whole "Platonic Ideal" thing.

That's not necessarily to say that there are not other levels of reality / whatever, but I certainly don't think some perfect "ideal" version of everything exists there.

I've always been a fan of Leary's statement that "Whatever is believed true is true, within limits to be defined by experience and experiment." Very Happy

But then, I'm a subjectivist. Wink

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Objective reality is electromagnetic radiation falling within a certain range of frequencies.

But that's not what blue is. That's only what causes blue. Sugar is not sweetness. Nor is a needle it's sting.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Av, by "ideal objects" I mean things like numbers, logic, ideal relations, etc. I don't think there are perfect exemplars of every object existing somewhere (though I do think that the meanings of these objects transcend their particular manifestations).

WF, the point is that "objective reality" isn't the only reality. There is also a subjective reality. This reality cannot be dismissed merely because "it's only in our heads," precisely because it interacts with objective reality. Also, quantum mechanics has shown that "objective reality" itself may be suspect, depending on subjective reality for its nature. Furthermore, what we think of as objective reality is known only through our subjectivity. So what you're calling "real" is an extrapolation from the very thing you're calling "not real." The idea that we can easily divide all this has been thoroughly debunked 100s of years ago. You're describing indirect realism, in which the things we perceive aren't the real things in themselves, but merely perceptual representations of those things. The problem with this idea is how can we ever know that these representations actually correspond to those real things in themselves? It forces you into an inauthentic way of talking about the world. If someone asked, "What color is the sky?" and you said, "blue," then you'd be dishonest, because you don't think the sky has a color. So normal conversations about the world would revert into gibberish. You couldn't even talk about the sky itself, but instead only a representation of it in your mind. If someone asked you to point to the sky, you'd have to point to your head.

But this is not how we talk, and it's not what we mean. Insisting upon this clear-cut divide makes the world dualist and paradoxical.

Blue is a subjective reaction to and apprehension of certain wavelengths of light. But everything we perceive is a subjective reaction to and apprehension of the world. So the problem isn't just primary/secondary quality distinction (e.g. "certain wavelengths" vs "blue" ), but the entire world itself. If blue isn't real, then neither are certain wavelengths of light, because those wavelengths are measured/described with numbers, and you've already gone on record stating that numbers have no objective reality beyond our thinking. So in calling "blue" unreal, you're also calling the entire world unreal.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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