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Racism
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Fist and Faith
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
No one is claiming that racism isn't happening.
You said (swore to all the gods, iirc) you had never heard that calling a black man "boy" is considered racist. But you had, as you demonstrated later. In other words, you lied in order to deny racism. If you weren't lying, I would have expected you to explain why the chain of posts you made could be explained other than as a lie, rather than try to make it look like I was the one doing something wrong when I pointed it out. Aside from what that does to your credibility, it makes me wonder how strong your position is if you have to lie to support it.

Zarathustra wrote:
No one burned down Kenosha because people claim racism isn't happening.
No one attacked Rittenhouse because people claim racism isn't happening.
Jacob Blake didn't rape anyone because people claim racism isn't happening.
Rittenhouse didn't shoot anyone because people claim racism isn't happening.
Let's see how many things we can list that people didn't do because people claim racism isn't happening...
Three white guys didn't murder Arbery because people claim racism isn't happening.
That woman didn't yell "You'll never be white!" to the Hispanic cop because people claim racism isn't happening.
Police didn't beat Ronald Greene to death, then lie about how he died, and refuse to release the body cam video for two years, because people claim racism isn't happening.
Chad Vorce didn't chase down a "frickin' black guy" and pull his gun on him, never identifying himself as an off-duty officer, because people claim racism isn't happening.

Zarathustra wrote:
The "problem" as you identify it had nothing to do with any of this.
You're right. The problem had nothing to do with any of the incidents I mentioned, either. (All of which I'm sure you can rationally explain as having no racist motivation.)

Zarathustra wrote:
The riots in Kenosha happened because the media hyped up a police shooting that had nothing to do with race. People didn't riot because of racists, they rioted because your side, people who think like you, incited a riot.
The police were idiots. They did an absolute shit job of it. No reason to think racism had a role in it when stupidity and bad training are obvious answers.

Zarathustra wrote:
And this incitement has become mainstream. Our mainstream media and even the leader of our country is contributing to this divisiveness by unfairly maligning a 17 year old boy who has been vindicated in a court of law.
Yes, he's been found not guilty of what he was charged with. I haven't the faintest idea why people are yelling that what he did was racist. Even if posing with Proud Boy supporters and flashing a racist hand-sign (if that's what it is) proves he's a racist, it's very difficult to see racism in his having shot the people he shot. His going way out of his way to take a gun to a place where he knew he was darned likely to need to use it might suggest he wanted to use it, but that doesn't suggest he's a racist, either. It just suggests he wanted to shoot people. When I don't want to shoot people, I don't take a gun to a place where there are riots.

Zarathustra wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:
Your side is out of its collective mind for thinking that the anger isn't going to build and build, until it explodes.
All the more reason for your side to get it right, no? If you expect it to explode, then maybe you shouldn't light fires. Maybe you should only call someone (or a bridge, or a rock) racist when it's actually proven to be racist . . . if you don't want things to explode.
Maybe you should say, "Yes, it is wrong that black people are assumed to be criminals, and are told they are not welcome in so many places in their own country." Instead of always denying that's happening. When a racist lights a fire, maybe you shouldn't throw gas on it. Nobody said the n-word, right? No n-word, no racism. Wlilful blindness.


Yes, people claiming racism isn't happening is a contributing factor to the insane reactions to Blake and Rittenhouse. You want the people who were on the receiving end of horrible shit for centuries, and still deal with things you and I have no experience with, to act as though they weren't on the receiving end of horrible shit for centuries, and still deal with things you and I have no experience with. You want everything to be separate incidents. Nothing touches anything else. Well people don't work like that. It's not human nature. The historical racism touches on today's racism. Any incident of racism today can touch on any other. And when you respond to their anger by saying the amount of racism taking place today isn't a big problem, and doesn't need to be addressed, and you deny racism whenever you can, it makes everything worse. First, because, if you're denying it, you're letting those doing it know that they have your support. It emboldens them. Second, because it gets people who are already angry about what they are dealing with more angry to be told they aren't dealing with anything. And others are fanning that anger. If black people weren't still being subjected to racism, and if people weren't saying "No, you're not", one incident of a black man being treated badly would not lead to riots.

You don't think black people being harassed, as well as shot and beaten to death, by racists is worth speaking out against. Only people misinterpreting a fairly small number of incidents is a problem. And that attitude couldn't possibly be pissing people off, making it easier for others to fan the flames.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:
And this incitement has become mainstream. Our mainstream media and even the leader of our country is contributing to this divisiveness by unfairly maligning a 17 year old boy who has been vindicated in a court of law.
Yes, he's been found not guilty of what he was charged with. I haven't the faintest idea why people are yelling that what he did was racist. Even if posing with Proud Boy supporters and flashing a racist hand-sign (if that's what it is) proves he's a racist, it's very difficult to see racism in his having shot the people he shot. His going way out of his way to take a gun to a place where he knew he was darned likely to need to use it might suggest he wanted to use it, but that doesn't suggest he's a racist, either. It just suggests he wanted to shoot people. When I don't want to shoot people, I don't take a gun to a place where there are riots.
This is some interesting parsing.

He was found "not guilty" by a jury, as is the way our legal system works. This is in spite of all the hateful lies from the media and from elected officials. Further, he carried a gun - as is his legal right - just as hundreds of thousands of people do every single day. Ascribing a motive to that is nothing more than more hateful lies.

Once again, a certain cadre of our society has prejudged someone based on incomplete information as well as straight-out lies, then bellowed when the desired result isn't reached by the legal system. Rittenhouse is a Bad Person for being there with a gun, the people who attacked him with guns and other weapons were Innocent Victims.

This is insanity. The fact that racism is somehow mixed in with this is incomprehensible.

Fist, your insistence of looking at everything through that jaundiced lens is a growing problem. That's a far larger problem than the few, high-profile instances of actual racism towards (primarily) blacks.

You've spent months in this thread and others virtually pounding on the table and calling others racists because they don't view the world through your lens. Zar isn't racist, and neither is Hashi or anyone else here. Not a single person has made the argument that racism doesn't exist, nor have they argued that it's not worth speaking out against. We've all made the point over and over again that the "racism" that you somehow keep buying into isn't systemic or as widespread as the narrative would have us believe because nearly every one of your causes of late has turned out to be based on lies and disinformation.

You do your argument no favors by continuing to cry wolf. You do it fewer favors by calling anyone who's not in lockstep with you a racist.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am uncertain exactly what form it will take, but it won't be long before The Left tries to paint Brooks--the Christmas Parade Killer--as the victim of some form of racial injustice. Probably the bail system....even though he has been skipping out on bail or sliding by with reduced bail for several years now.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:
No one is claiming that racism isn't happening.
You said (swore to all the gods, iirc) you had never heard that calling a black man "boy" is considered racist. But you had, as you demonstrated later.
I just forgot that Hashi had posted that. It wasn't a lie. In fact, I think this argues in my favor. I lack the conditioning necessary for that to have registered, to have stuck in my memory. When Hashi posted it, I could imagine how *liberals* would view it as racist, and yet still ignore it, because they're partisan hypocrites. But since I haven't been taught that words like "boy" are racist, I promptly forgot it to such a degree that I could swear to all the gods that I'd never heard that, even though contrary proof was only a few pages back. If I was lying, which would require my knowledge of this post while I made my promise, it wouldn't make much sense for me to think I could so easily get away with it. It just didn't register, precisely because I think it's harmless word. Just like Biden calling Obama "clean and articulate." I don't think those are racist, either, but I know the Left thinks this way. So I've brought it up a couple times to point out their hypocrisy.

Fist and Faith wrote:
Maybe you should say, "Yes, it is wrong that black people are assumed to be criminals, and are told they are not welcome in so many places in their own country." Instead of always denying that's happening. When a racist lights a fire, maybe you shouldn't throw gas on it. Nobody said the n-word, right? No n-word, no racism. Wlilful blindness.
I haven't thrown any fire! The only person upset with anything I've said is you, and if you start a riot because of this debate, that's on you. Your side has burned down multiple cities because of a repeated overreaction. I can't believe you're comparing the two. Baltimore. Ferguson. Kenosha. All burned to the ground because people thought there was racism when there wasn't. I can't believe you don't understand the magnitude of the problem, here.

Fist and Faith wrote:
Yes, people claiming racism isn't happening is a contributing factor to the insane reactions to Blake and Rittenhouse. You want the people who were on the receiving end of horrible shit for centuries, and still deal with things you and I have no experience with, to act as though they weren't on the receiving end of horrible shit for centuries, and still deal with things you and I have no experience with.
Literally no one is on the receiving end of anything for centuries, because no one lives for centuries. This is another example of the exaggeration your side uses. I can't go back to the dawn of time and claim to be a victim of neanderthal violence, even if it did happen to my European ancestors. You are only a victim of things that happen to you directly, and only if you choose to view it as victimization. People claiming that racism isn't as bad as your exaggerations aren't victimizing anyone with that opinion. Just look at the newly elected black Lt. Governor of Virginia: she holds exactly the same opinion as I do. Why doesn't this idea victimize her? Because she chooses not to think like a victim.

Fist and Faith wrote:
The historical racism touches on today's racism.
How? Show me the link. It's your theory. Prove it. Do any of the *good* things in the past affect today, too? Like freeing the slaves and passing the Civil Rights Act? You know, things that still exist?? Or is it just that bad things that no longer exist that have magical powers to still exist?

Fist and Faith wrote:
if you're denying it, you're letting those doing it know that they have your support.
That's absolutely not true. For instance, the jurors who found Rittenhouse not guilty aren't telling him they approve of his actions, he's just not guilty of the charges brought against him, because those charges weren't proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Likewise, in the few examples you've given, I believe there is reasonable doubt to refrain from branding them racists, with absolutely certainty (though they might be!). This is a hell of a lot different from supporting them! You are putting that on me, it doesn't come from me.

Your argument amounts to: "no one can ever dispute racism in any event," because as soon as someone does, you simply lump them in with your racism charge as if it proves your point. And them blame *them* for the riots.
You've crafted an argument that no one can ever disagree with. Which is bullshit. Disagreeing with you doesn't prove you right. Denying that your examples prove racism doesn't prove racism.

I didn't invent the idea that racism is being exaggerated. I've come up with three catastrophic examples of such an exaggeration (Ferguson, Kenosha, Baltimore). It's a real phenomenon! In comparison, you have brought up a UPS guy who was asked for an ID . . . and you still think you're winning this argument! Wow.

Fist and Faith wrote:
it gets people who are already angry about what they are dealing with more angry to be told they aren't dealing with anything.
I haven't told a single person that they're not dealing with anything. I've only talked to you, a white guy. If an entire population wants to read my posts and infer that I'm talking about them, when I've only talked about a few examples here, then they would be guilty of the same fallacies you're making, generalizing unfairly. But I don't actually think you speak for the entire black population, Fist, though you pretend to. There are actually millions of black people who agree with what I'm saying and would resent you putting words/feelings in their mouth. I agree with the black people who look at this issue reasonably! Not the ones who get angry every time the liberal media tells them to be pissed off about something. You can side with them. Have fun with that.

Fist and Faith wrote:
If black people weren't still being subjected to racism, and if people weren't saying "No, you're not", one incident of a black man being treated badly would not lead to riots.
So how do you explain all the black people who don't riot? If the actions of rioters are axiomatic, perfectly understandable and justified, then are the one's who *don't* riot the unreasonable ones?

People riot because they assume racism before the facts are presented, because they are taught to think this way by their leaders (the Democratic Party), who capitalize on that mindset to keep them voting this way, and their accomplices in the media push this message for the same result. I'm quite confident that you wouldn't even know the Kenosha riots happened because a black man raped his ex-girlfriend in front of their kids if I hadn't mentioned it here. The entire nation has been lied to, by omission. If they'd been told the truth--that this fleeing rapist who pulled a weapon on the cops deserved to be shot--then the riots would never have happened in the first place. If the media hadn't amplified the lies of "hands up, don't shoot," a lie told by Dorian Johnson (who had previously been charged with lying to the police!), then the riots in Ferguson would never have happened, despite your unproven theory.

From Wikipedia:
Widipedia wrote:
This claim was never investigated or vetted by anyone in the mainstream media, and was repeatedly broadcast as fact, causing more tension over this obviously false narrative.
That LIE has become the fucking rallying cry of the BLM! Their very slogan is a lie, and they don't feel any shame in that! The amplification of a single lie has become the defining words of a movement that has now burned down at least three cities, and you think *my* opinion is the cause of these riots! That's insane!

Fist and Faith wrote:
You don't think black people being harassed, as well as shot and beaten to death, by racists is worth speaking out against.
False. You are the one lying now.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Per CNN:There's nothing more frightening in America today than an angry white man.

Now aside from the fact that that's objectively false, it's unnecessarily inflammatory, and not a little bit racist. And Fist, by following this same behavior is stirring the pot of racial division.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you recall, we detailed how "hands up don't shoot" was a lie back when Ferguson had just happened. The Left loves its lies--remember "no war for oil", the slogan which magically disappeared the day Obama got sworn into office?

All this rage over slavery here in the United States....it's just stupid bullshit. Two things: 1) slavery officially ended in 1863 here, but only in the places where it was legal--in most of the nation it had been illegal since day one and 2) slavery is going on parts of the world right now but apparently no one cares about that--the markets were operating in Libya during the Obama Administration (that's when I first cited the story; it has been going on for longer than that), the cartels in Mexico have slavery--what do you think human trafficking is?, and we all know that China is currently using slave labor by abusing the Uyghur Muslims.

Bottom line, it comes down to this: the people who cry about how racist the United States is are looking only at the negatives. They absolutely refuse to look at any positive changes which have been made here. Too much time being brainwashed by 1619/crt advocates (even though 1619 has been debunked by actual historians).

*************

A self-styled "Battle rapper, Community activist, Songwriter, Tattoo artist, Militant" in Milwaukee named Vaun Mayes posted a short video of himself from the site of the parade disaster saying the following:


Quote:
I don't know. Now we'll have to wait and see because they do have somebody in custody. We may have to wait and see what they say about why this happened. But it sounds possible that the revolution has started in Wisconsin. It started with this Christmas parade.


The only revolution which needs to happen is a revolt against all the stupid "the United States was founded on racism" bullshit. Revisionist history is not history--quit trying to judge all of history by a woke modern sensibility.

I have mentioned this before but from time to time I need to ask it: if black lives matter so much, then when will the blm address black-on-black murder? The number one killer of young black men is "other young black men".

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:
Per CNN:There's nothing more frightening in America today than an angry white man.

Now aside from the fact that that's objectively false, it's unnecessarily inflammatory, and not a little bit racist. And Fist, by following this same behavior is stirring the pot of racial division.


I tried to read the article, got about 3/4 through it before I realized my hunch was right: this is trash. He tries to say, "I'm not talking about all white men" to cover his ass that he's not creating a stereotype, but then goes right on to argue for this stereotype. He lumps Rittenhouse into this group, but then provides no evidence that Rittenhouse was angry, white supremacist, or racially motivated in the least. There's nothing "racial" in this example except the author singling him out for being white.

Back to Fist's argument: he's claiming that my examples of overreactions to racism (e.g. the Ferguson, Kenosha, Baltimore riots) were themselves caused by denying racism. This is what I meant about crafting an argument that can't be debated. If you think evidence which refutes your point can be explained away by merely restating your point, then you don't get the point.

The point: Fist is claiming we deny racism. I'm claiming his side exaggerates it. I provide unequivocal evidence of an overreaction to a false attribution of racism. He claims this overreaction is caused by us denying racism. But in each of these three cases, denying racism was the correct call. Racism didn't cause them, only the incorrect perception of it did. So how can racism not cause something, while simultaneously the denial of racism does? It can't be an example of both. You can't claim that it's reasonable to deny racism in these cases and then claim denial of racism is what caused them. If we can't trust the rioters to judge when it's appropriate to be upset about racism, then we also can't trust the rioters to judge when it's inappropriate to deny it.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When boulders are racist, roads are racist, and D&D is racist, then everything is racist.

In California, State officials are trying to say that what happened in San Francisco was not looting according to the legal definition of the term: oraganized robbery or theft which occurs during a natural disaster or other emergency. Okay, fine....until you realize that the State of California is still technically under a "state of enmergency" over both water shortages and corona. Of course, they are also saying that "looting" conjures up images of only black people, which is demonstrably untrue--go look up that footage of white people looting New Orleans after Katrina. In the San Francisco loots though, a lot of the looters are captured on video and video speaks for itself. This dovetails with the "crimes are not crimes" thread--in an effort to "bring social justice" DAs offices are not prosecuting crimes, letting people out of jail for a mere pittance of bail (Brooks' last bail was $500--a mere $50 and you can walk out of jail, just like in Monopoly), and looters and rioters are being called "peaceful protesters". Our coversion to the wasteland of Fallout is 90% complete--lawless gangs of looters now control San Francisco (in addition to the homeless crows who own the streets). Combined with all the racial divisiveness and hatred the Democrat Party has stirred up in the last 10 years and we are looking at their version of Utopia.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree, Hashi. These thieving mobs are hordes of opportunists looting a store--not for racial justice, but for sheer greed (and, as Hashi points out, the video footage seems to show an overrepresentation of one race). And they are emboldened to do so because of liberal policies that are literally doing away with law and order in the name of "equity." Because black people commit more crimes, they'll simply stop prosecuting them for crimes. Genius! They actually think that the racially skewed numbers come from prosecutions (in a justice system they run!), rather than actual frequencies of crime. But when you stop prosecuting, you get *more* crime, not less. So prosecution isn't the problem. Obviously.

Brooks--the Christmas parade granny killer--was out on bail for precisely the same reason. The Milwaukee County District Attorney, a radical named John Chisholm, actually admitted in an interview that he knew his lenient policy would lead to more murders, but that was simply the price we had to pay to make our system more "equitable."

DA John Chisholm wrote:
"Is there going to be an individual I divert, or I put into a treatment program, Who's going to go out and kill somebody? You bet. Guaranteed. It is guaranteed to happen. It does not invalidate the overall approach."


Progs don't care. The consequences of their actions--even murder--don't "invalidate the overall approach." No price is too high to pay for their social justice fantasies. Rashida Harbi, infamous member of the hyper-progressive "Squad" in the House, actually cosponsored a bill that would let all prisoners out of federal prison within 10 years! When confronted about that in an interview, she was unfazed. This is literally what they want to do.

These people are fucking nuts. I'm not sure that the "let's speak out against racism" crowd even knows what they have aligned themselves with. The leaders of this movement want absolute anarchy and lawlessness. They want to tear our system down, get rid of police and prisons. And make the entire country like San Francisco.

The irony is that all these people want Rittenhouse locked up! We should let everyone out of jail . . . except "angry white men." Can the hypocrisy be any more obvious??
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not even just hypocrisy......It's racist.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rachael Maddow devoted an entire segment Monday to the Christmas parade massacre, but didn't even mention Brooks by name, or show his mugshot, or mention the fact that he was out on bail for running over his girlfriend, or his 22 year long criminal record and 50 page rap sheet. He was simply "the suspect." It wasn't an angry black man, radicalized BLM supporter, a few miles from and a few days after the Rittenhouse case. No, those things are utterly irrelevant. It was just a red SUV, folks!

This amounts to a cover-up. The Left does not want its viewers to know the details, obviously, which include the consequences of their policies. But they not only plastered Rittenhouse's face all over the media, they recklessly and without justification speculated into this imaginary white supremacist past. They made up lies (e.g. "he crossed state lines armed for battle"), going out of their way to invent details where none existed. But we can't even know this suspect's name??

That's what providing cover looks like, Fist, not my disagreement with your examples.

[Edit: it looks like a guilty verdict was given in the Arbery murder trial. Guess what you won't see afterwards? Answer: conservatives losing their shit, protesting, or rioting. They will accept and most likely agree with the verdict and support the idea that justice was done. An all-white jury, with the exception of one black juror, found three white guys guilty. Imagine that!
I thought the justice system was systemically racist??]
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guess who can STILL find something to complain about ("racism!") in a guilty verdict for three white men given by a nearly all-white jury? This black liberal.

Quote:
Murder convictions in Arbery death can't erase defense's racist rationale


You got your marching orders, libs? This is not a time to celebrate justice! No, even when they win, they can't find anything positive about it! Because the idea of progress and justice must be ignored at all costs! This trial is only valuable to the Left in as much as they can use it to malign white people and our "racist" country. That's the whole point. That was going to happen no matter what the verdict was. They had their outrage all ready to go! In fact, a guilty verdict is an inconvenience for them, anticlimactic. Poor libs.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is deep irony that someone who has criticized fallacious ad hominen arguments over a hundred times here from 2006 to the present would dismiss this article by referring to the writer's race and political leanings.

Actually, Mr. Jones makes a relatively good case that the conduct and statements of the defense team were designed to play to prejudicial tropes throughout the proceedings from jury selection through the body of the trial and culminating in Ms. Hogue's ill-considered remarks during closing arguments.

One may not care for Mr. Jones, his views, or the organization publishing his article, but the facts he states are not in dispute.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
[Edit: it looks like a guilty verdict was given in the Arbery murder trial. Guess what you won't see afterwards? Answer: conservatives losing their shit, protesting, or rioting. They will accept and most likely agree with the verdict and support the idea that justice was done. An all-white jury, with the exception of one black juror, found three white guys guilty. Imagine that!
I thought the justice system was systemically racist??]


The Arbery trial will quicky fade from the public consciousness becuase The Left won't keep harping on it as it does not promote their agenda. This is also why Leftist media is mentioning only the SUV, not Brooks, his lengthy criminal history, and the fact that he was out on a $500 bond after already being arrested for "jumping bail" in a previous case.

All this outrage from The Left requires them to claim that the United States and everything about it is racist, otherwise they would just be random mobs of rioters and looters. Their false narrative is designed to give their rioting and looting some sort of moral justification. They would not need to justify their actions if their motivations were truthful.

Sadly, here is what is going to happen. Some retailer--perhaps even a group of them--are going to hire private security for some of their locations, a flash loot is going to occur, and someone (possibly multiple people) are going to be shot. The Left will explode--how *dare* these corporations, who have not been paying their fair share of taxes and who have been engaging in price-gouging because inflation isn't real--and so actual riots against the retailers will take place. If you though the looting after George Floyd was bad, you haven't seen anything yet.

edit/add: it doesn't matter who you are, if you don't adhere to the script and the party line then you will be attacked. Students at Dave Chappelle's old school for the arts he got called "bigot".

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:
This is insanity. The fact that racism is somehow mixed in with this is incomprehensible.
I agree.

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:
Fist, your insistence of looking at everything through that jaundiced lens is a growing problem.
I wasn't viewing it through that lens. I was just saying, even if he is a racist, it has nothing to do with the case. I have no idea if he's a racist.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:
Fist, your insistence of looking at everything through that jaundiced lens is a growing problem.
I wasn't viewing it through that lens. I was just saying, even if he is a racist, it has nothing to do with the case. I have no idea if he's a racist.
And yet you seem certain that Zar and Hashi are racist, or at the very least deny that racism exists.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Back to Fist's argument: he's claiming that my examples of overreactions to racism (e.g. the Ferguson, Kenosha, Baltimore riots) were themselves caused by denying racism.
No. I didn't. Let's see what I actually said:
Fist and Faith wrote:
Yes, people claiming racism isn't happening is a contributing factor to the insane reactions to Blake and Rittenhouse.
"...a contributing factor." There's a pretty good difference between being "the cause of" and being "a contributing factor of". I'm not saying it's just one thing. And this relates to many things you say. Things are not as, no pun intended, strictly black and white as you always make them out to be. There is no one-and-only-one problem; or answer; or reaction; or pretty much anything else. It's all a web. Many threads interweaving. No incident that takes place exists in a vacuum, where someone does something for no reason. Many factors go into the insanity we're dealing with today. It's not just people denying racism.

Zarathustra wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:
The historical racism touches on today's racism.
How? Show me the link. It's your theory. Prove it. Do any of the *good* things in the past affect today, too? Like freeing the slaves and passing the Civil Rights Act? You know, things that still exist?? Or is it just that bad things that no longer exist that have magical powers to still exist?
Zarathustra wrote:
Literally no one is on the receiving end of anything for centuries, because no one lives for centuries.
Historical racism is another factor. How you don't think the past has any influence on the present is absolutely incomprehensible. As though people don't pass on family history through the generations; from the time of slavery, or as recent as the Civil Rights Era. As though the story of someone's grandmother or great grandmother doesn't play any role in how a person feels about and views things.

The fact of slavery can affect someone who doesn't even have stories of family. Watch the episode of Finding Your Roots with Pharrell Williams. Is there any chance a black child in 7th grade watching Roots when it first came out had a different reaction to it than I did?

But no, past racism doesn't touch on the present. I have no idea how you can think that.


To make it worse, there's current racism. You always say there is racism. But you don't think it is important. Your position is that racism is not "even something that *needs* to be solved," and it's "more like something for people to be upset about". It is important. Some people say the slaves didn't have it so bad. Some people say they wish there still were slaves. The high emotions the thought of slavery brings out in some is not going to go away when they are hearing that shit, and being called the n-word, being followed by security in stores, being harassed by people for being in the wrong neighborhood, and the more violent things that also happen.


Another factor is the people intentionally egging things on, for their own gain. Money, political power, fame, whatever. But do you think these people would be able to manipulate so many people into these riots over incidents that don't appear to have a racist component - just happen to be white people killing black people - by saying they are racially motivated, if it wasn't for other factors that have people upset in the first place? If groups of people of different races who had never had contact before were thrown together, and one person from one group was killed by people of the other, do you think manipulators could convince a bunch of the murdered person's people into believing it was because of racism, and have them riot because of it? With no history of racism between the two, and no current racism between the two?


Zarathustra wrote:
Your side has burned down multiple cities because of a repeated overreaction. I can't believe you're comparing the two. Baltimore. Ferguson. Kenosha. All burned to the ground because people thought there was racism when there wasn't.
Those cities were burned to the ground?? Holy cow, I had no idea.

Anyway, my side says speak out against racism.


Zarathustra wrote:
. . . and you still think you're winning this argument! Wow.
Wha...? Laughing What does that even mean? I don't think I'm convincing you that we should speak out against racism, if that's what you mean. I don't think I'm convincing you that the racism black Americans have to deal with is something you and I have no real understanding of, and that the least of it is disgusting beyond belief. I don't even think I've convincing you that black Americans actually do have to deal with racism. No, I'm not winning in the tiniest way. Or did you have something else in mind by "winning"?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:
And yet you seem certain that Zar and Hashi are racist, or at the very least deny that racism exists.
Oh. I thought you meant Rittenhouse specifically.

Well, to try to strip things down to the basic ideas... Black Americans are subjected to racism daily. No, every black American is not subjected to racism daily. Also, not every white American is a racist. But it is happening every day. And every black American does have to deal with it at various points. Even if it's only being called the n-word. Even if it's only being harassed for being in the wrong neighborhood. It's racism and it's daily. It's deplorable that a specific group of Americans has to put up with being treated this way in their own country. I don't think they should have to tolerate it. I think it should be spoken out against.

Hashi and Z argue against this in various ways. Including:
-Racism was worse in the past.
-Racism in America is not systemic.
-A boulder cannot be racist.
-People are calling many incidents racism that are not.
-People are reacting inappropriately to incidents that are being called racism that are not.
-People want to teach CRT to children, and, in its current form, CRT is a terrible thing to teach children.
-Some black Americans are racist toward other races.
-Some black Americans make poor choices, and these choices are the cause of the difficult circumstances they find themselves in.

I agree with all of those things.*

Some may think the first two mean we do not need to bother speaking out against racism any longer. I very strongly disagree. None of the rest have anything to do with whether or not we should speak out against racism.

*
-I have said there is systemic racism. I have since agreed to the definition that this would require formalized, written rules. Which I do not believe exist.
-I'm sure a boulder can represent racism. For example, if crushing slaves in the town square with a boulder was the traditional method of execution, and that boulder was still there today in the town square. I don't know anything about the boulder that is frequently brought up here, but I don't imagine it's anything like that. I assume it's something ridiculous.
-We do not always agree on whether or not an incident was racially motivated.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<sigh>

There isn't any group that isn't subjected to racism daily. On the whole do blacks get it worse? Maybe. Probably. But it's out there for everyone, depending on who and where they are. And there's no legislation and no amount of pointless internet outrage that's going to change that.

I'd argue that more damage has been done by people who think and act as you do than by actual racists. Because those actual racists are few and far between. Name a black man in the last 10 years who's been put through the media wringer the way that Rittenhouse or the McKloskeys have been.

When blacks riot and destroy things, it's "understandable". Billions of dollars were destroyed in Baltimore and Ferguson. Over lies. Rittenhouse, the McKloskeys, Sandman....those people's lives were turned upside down by media lies. CHAZ was an actual secession that the government allowed. People were raped and killed there, but that was okay.

Racism sucks, but wanton destruction fighting fake racism is worse.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just because some people take a good thing and do evil with it doesn't mean the good thing is not good. And it doesn't mean the good thing should be stopped or hidden away so that nobody will do evil with it. What's wrong with speaking out against racism and stopping people from twisting the message to evil?

It's not "understandable" that black people riot and destroy things. Not if, by that, you mean "excusable". I've never rioted. I've never encouraged rioting, or said it's okay that anyone rioted. I never told the police to let the rioters riot, or not to arrest them afterwards. Why do you say I think and act like them?

As for who has done more damage, in the last several years, more damage has been done by rioters than by the people I'm speaking out against.
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