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America - A Liberal Democracy Under Pressure
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Obi-Wan Nihilo
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
The biggest problem with having guns to "fight tyranny" is that tyranny is whatever you say it is, rather than whatever it actually is. Tyranny is having health care, but it's not overthrowing valid elections.
Funny, but tyrannical partisans that you voted for and quote here have tried to:

- Federalize elections when that's specifically forbidden by the Constitution.

- Prevent Madison Cawthorn from running for office based on the baseless accusation that he participated in an insurrection without due process and a conviction.

- Fabricated a fantasy about Russian collusion in order to hamstring the duly elected president.

- Engaged in a nakedly partisan smear campaign against two SCOTUS nominees. Went as far as to accuse one of serial rape and abuse, with zero credible evidence, and then stormed both the Senate chambers and the Supreme Court in order to overturn the will of the people.

- Fabricated executive authority in order to change election rules without the participation of the legislature.

- Attempted to illegally assert the police power of the federal government (when no such thing exists) in order to backdoor an illegal vaccination mandate through the administrative authority of OSHA.

- Whined about a "partisan SCOTUS" when things didn't go your way, but have not a thing to say about the three Democrat-appointed Justices choosing their beliefs over what's plainly in the Constitution, with one (Sotomayor) displaying abject ignorance of administrative law and the difference between state and federal police power.

I could go on, but you don't understand these issues, so there's no point.

wayfriend wrote:
Who's really clueless?
That'd be you. Since birth. As usual. For eternity.
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Rodney King was caught on video being kicked and beaten to death - none of those police officers were investigated.


Skyweir wrote:
So if it were up to us (who couldn’t give a fuck about ignorant unvaccinated folk dying in large number) 😉 perhaps that’s purely how evolution will sort out intellectually deficient out of the general population.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edit to add - There is an entire thread that is pages and pages long where we all discussed the Second Amendment. Those who believe there is no personal right to arms in that Amendment will never be swayed no matter how many founders writings are posted. Those that believe the Second Amendment gives us the right to personally own arms, will always believe that we have that right and will not be swayed.

wayfriend wrote:
Look at what passes for discussion these days.

If SoulBiter weren't a hypocrite, he'd complain about you.


I am not in favor of attacking people at the personal level. So I thing we can all roll back that kind of posting. Including Z. However I have zero control of it.

Also don't you see the Irony of complaining about a personal attack but in the same sentence doing exactly that?

wayfriend wrote:

Meanwhile, I have already conceded that the tyranny interpretation has been around a long time.


Not just a long time. Since the founding of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Its very clear from the founders own writings what they intended. You can dislike that, but that doesnt change those facts.

wayfriend wrote:

The fact that people have defended it by repeating it over and over (and not much else) doesn't prove anything. I can post a long list of quotes of people saying exactly why it's wrong.


Actually it does prove something. The original intent of those that wrote this into the framework of our laws.

wayfriend wrote:

But you still can't read "for the security of the State" as "against the tyranny of the State" no matter how much you squint - a point you decided to pretend didn't happen.


I don't have to pretend anything happened or didn't happen. The Constitution was written in a different era, which is why we have to look back at those writings to determine intent.

wayfriend wrote:

Do you find it ironic in the slightest little way that the Republican party is currently engaging in activities to ensure elections are not settled freely?

And that, YOUR very interpretation of the second amendment, not mine, suggests that we must take up arms against the Republicans who do so?

No, of course not. Because the Republicans "ain't doin' nuthin'", of course.

The biggest problem with having guns to "fight tyranny" is that tyranny is whatever you say it is, rather than whatever it actually is. Tyranny is having health care, but it's not overthrowing valid elections.

Who's really clueless?


All of the last paragraph is not worth the time to reply to as it is just intended to get a reaction. You continue to throw things out like "restricting free elections" but it has been proven over and over again that this statement is incorrect. Its as much "The big lie" as the the 2020 election lie.

Ah well... time to move on with my day.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Look at what passes for discussion these days.
You know what? You're right. I'm sorry. I can do better. Ignorance combined with arrogance combined with insults combined with trying to limit my freedom just makes me angry sometimes. And you check all those boxes on nearly a daily basis.

wayfriend wrote:
I can post a long list of quotes of people saying exactly why it's wrong.
The issue isn't whether you can provide quotes. Provide them from whom? From where? Do you understand what the Federalist Papers are? Do you know who wrote them? You better look it up, because Rachael Maddow doesn't know, either, so you won't hear it from her.

Never mind, I'll help you out. Do the names, "Alexander Hamilton and James Madison" ring a bell? When the Constitution was being ratified, the individual states were nervous about giving the federal government all that power. In order to assuage their fears, Hamilton (one of the contributing authors of the Constitution and its primary interpreter) wrote the Federalist Papers, explaining it to the states so that their concerns would be addressed. And one of their concerns was the government seizing their guns. And so HIS quotes are UNIQUELY RELEVANT to the interpretation of the Constitution, and indeed, the SCOTUS still refers to it in their own interpretations/rulings to this very day.

In fact, the Supreme Courts' primary role of judicial review to invalidate law as unconstitutional was itself derived from these Papers. From supremecourt.gov:

Quote:
The complex role of the Supreme Court in this system derives from its authority to invalidate legislation or executive actions which, in the Court’s considered judgment, conflict with the Constitution. This power of "judicial review" has given the Court a crucial responsibility in assuring individual rights, as well as in maintaining a "living Constitution" whose broad provisions are continually applied to complicated new situations.

While the function of judicial review is not explicitly provided in the Constitution, it had been anticipated before the adoption of that document. Prior to 1789, state courts had already overturned legislative acts which conflicted with state constitutions. Moreover, many of the Founding Fathers expected the Supreme Court to assume this role in regard to the Constitution; Alexander Hamilton and James Madison, for example, had underlined the importance of judicial review in the Federalist Papers, which urged adoption of the Constitution.


Coincidentally, that also addresses this:

Wayfriend wrote:
But you still can't read "for the security of the State" as "against the tyranny of the State" no matter how much you squint - a point you decided to pretend didn't happen.


That's why we have a SCOTUS, and that's why they rely upon things like the Federalist Papers for interpretation. And that's why the quotes above prove you wrong.

So let's see your quotes. You said you can provide them. So do it. What's your source? This ought to good.

Wayfriend wrote:
Do you find it ironic in the slightest little way that the Republican party is currently engaging in activities to ensure elections are not settled freely?
No they're not. That's another lie you believe without checking. (That would be your gullibility showing.) The "problems" with the Georgia law, for instance, have been features of Biden's home state (Delaware) for decades, and no one ever called them "Jim Crow 2.0."

Quote:

Georgia's new voting law has sparked outrage from Democrats and even been called "Jim Crow on steroids" by President Joe Biden, but many of its provisions have governed elections in other states across the country for years.

From voter ID requirements to ballot drop boxes, and early voting schedules to absentee ballot access, there is little new or unique in the freshly minted Georgia rules. In fact, many of the measures critics are attacking have long been in place in blue states, including Biden's home state of Delaware.

link

Wayfriend wrote:
Who's really clueless?
See above.

Here's another great link if you want to stop embarrassing yourself.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems that some liberals have said that Sen Sinema should:

Quote:
'Resign or be removed from office'


This video is worth a listen. I find her comments refreshing coming from the Senate.

I don't agree with everything she has to say but the manner in which she said it and the respect for rule of law and the Constitution that she states. If you want to skip some of it, start listening at about 7mins


And of course what follows are a string of rants that try to "shame" her into changing her mind.

Quote:
"There's no need for me to restate my longstanding support for the 60-vote threshold to pass legislation. There's no need for me to restate its role in protecting our country from wild reversals of federal policy," Sinema said. "This week's harried discussions about Senate rules are but a poor substitute for what I believe could have and should have been a thoughtful public debate at any time over the past year."

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the Republicans regain control of the Senate in 2022 they will change the filibuster rules in the first 12 seconds. Then I expect you will praise it; that is the pattern you have established, don't blame me.

Also: it's not a law.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
When the Republicans regain control of the Senate in 2022 they will change the filibuster rules in the first 12 seconds. Then I expect you will praise it; that is the pattern you have established, don't blame me.


The pattern of flip-flopping on the filibuster has already been established by the Dems, right now:

Chuck Schumer wrote:
“Bottom line is very simple: The ideologues in the Senate want to turn what the Founding Fathers called ‘the cooling saucer of democracy’ into the rubber stamp of dictatorship. We will not let them. They want, because they can’t get their way on every judge, to change the rules in mid-stream, to wash away 200 years of history. They want to make this country into a banana republic, where if you don’t get your way, you change the rules. Are we going to let them? It’ll be a doomsday for democracy if we do.

That was what Sen. Chuck Schumer said in 2005, as he successfully argued that Republicans should not change the Senate’s filibuster rules to get their way. Now that Democrats have the Senate majority, with him as their leader, he’s arguing strenuously for sidelining the filibuster to “wash away 200 years of history.”


The Dems are so full of shit. They really think we forget this easily? (Well, some of us do, of course. See above.)

link

[Still waiting on those quotes you promised, WF.]
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why did you omit that Chuck's quote was from 17 years ago? You know, before Obama got elected and before filibuster rules were turned into an obstruct-everything mechanism?

Oh yeah. Because it proves your wasting everyone's time.

Times change.

There was a time when Republicans acted in good faith and allowed votes to occur even when they didn't get what they wanted.

The very last debt limit vote in the Senate was achieved by temporarily suspending the filibuster. Republicans voted for suspending the filibuster so that they could vote against raising the debt limit while being assured it would pass.

And that tells you everything you need to know about what "legislating" means to Republicans in 2022.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Some of these posts are giving me the vibe that MTG tiptoeing up to the line calling for 2nd Amdt violence against Dems is totally cool cuz The Founders.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh please... over react much?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:
Oh please... over react much?
The only time he uses his own words is to take swipes at others.....Just like jesus taught.
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Rodney King was caught on video being kicked and beaten to death - none of those police officers were investigated.


Skyweir wrote:
So if it were up to us (who couldn’t give a fuck about ignorant unvaccinated folk dying in large number) 😉 perhaps that’s purely how evolution will sort out intellectually deficient out of the general population.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
When the Republicans regain control of the Senate in 2022 they will change the filibuster rules in the first 12 seconds. Then I expect you will praise it; that is the pattern you have established, don't blame me.

Also: it's not a law.


There were some calls to do so during the previous admin but it didn't happen. I dont see it happening if the Reps take control. However if the Dems end up doing this, all bets will be off and yet another guardrail will have been removed that give the minority a voice.
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** Note to add that ALL of the hens have since disappeared***


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least we are all in agreement that the Republicans will retake the Senate in 2022, which should significantly slow down the Biden Administration's attemtps to burn down the United States. If Republicans retake the House they should repay Biden as Democrats paid Trump--impeach him over something relatively trivial.

Still, Republicans won't do away with the filibuster, that Senate feature which Democrats have been arguing against for several years now becuase it stands in their way. The irony is that they could have done away with it at any time in the last year and haven't done it yet--why haven't they done away with it like they say they want to? The answer is simple: they know they will lose the Senate in 2022 and will need to have it to oppose Republican efforts.

As I have said elsewhere, the ink will not be dry on Congress' attempts to Federalize all elections before a Federal Court, and probably and SCOTUS itself, strikes it down. People forget that we are 50 small nations generally working together on a daily basis, not one large nation with a top-down structure like tyrannical Nanny State Democrats want.

Biden is now poised to try and force Federalization of police departments via executive order. Now, in his defense some of the proposals he wants are things that I have advocated for years--no more no-knock warrants, mandating body cams on all officers, no chokeholds, etc. Still...Federalizing police departments is a slippery slope, only one step away from a national secret police.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+


Ron Filipkowski @RonFilipkowski | Twitter [Video: < 1 min]



The Money-Quote:

Quote:
Fmr. Pres. Trump: There's a famous statement, "Sometimes, the vote counter is more important than the candidate."

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trump's a has-been. People are still trying to run races either as if he is still a force with which to be reckoned or as if they have his endorsement, but by 2024 he won't matter any more.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Trump's a has-beenby 2024 he won't matter any more.


I'll drink to that.

Here's to swimmin' with bowlegged women.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are fooling yourself if you don't think Trump will be the GOP candidate in 2024
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:
You are fooling yourself if you don't think Trump will be the GOP candidate in 2024
That would be a catastrophic choice, and a great way to snatch defeat from the jaws of a very easy victory.

Haley/Rubio, I don't care which of them is at the top of the ticket.
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Rodney King was caught on video being kicked and beaten to death - none of those police officers were investigated.


Skyweir wrote:
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no way Trump is the nominee. And I'm the guy saying he would win before any of you back in 2016!
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
There's no way Trump is the nominee. And I'm the guy saying he would win before any of you back in 2016!
The problem is that there's no mechanism to stop him.

Bob Dole was completely wrong to run against Bill Clinton in 1996, but the party decided he was the guy, and that was it. The GOP establishment wanted anyone but Trump in 2016, and - early on, at least - wanted him out of the race. Too bad, no way to stop him. If he announces, he's got a really good shot at getting the nomination unless he can be shackled to his failure to deal with his terrible messaging about Covid, and his insolent behavior surrounding the 2020 election, not to mention losing to a senile old man who campaigned from his basement, and the most unlikeable female politician who's last name isn't Clinton.

Too many people in the party, both in the GOP power structure and in the electorate want to see him be POTUS again.
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Skyweir wrote:
Rodney King was caught on video being kicked and beaten to death - none of those police officers were investigated.


Skyweir wrote:
So if it were up to us (who couldn’t give a fuck about ignorant unvaccinated folk dying in large number) 😉 perhaps that’s purely how evolution will sort out intellectually deficient out of the general population.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no doubt he will be *a* candidiate, just not *the* candidate.
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