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Change attitudes towards abortion? (Part 2)
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Obi-Wan Nihilo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nathan wrote:
Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:


A. That absolutely was the law in certain jurisdictions - both New York and Virginia come to mind off the top of my head.

B. The SCOTUS decision didn't make abortion a crime for anyone, it allowed state legislatures to decide their own laws, as was intended by the Constitution.

R v. W was a poor decision that carved out a "right" from thin air and subverted the legislative process.


A. The linked article describes a law allowing for late term abortions when the woman’s health is endangered or the foetus is unviable, do you really think those circumstances are unreasonable? In any case, striking down Roe v Wade makes absolutely no difference in those jurisdictions, it allows for draconian laws doing things like forcing children to carry pregnancies after rape but does nothing about other states passing their own, more humane laws.
No, this is what the article describes:

Quote:
In the video recorded by the Republican Standard, Gilbert asks Tran whether her legislation would let a pregnant woman who is dilating request an abortion if a doctor certified that the woman's mental health was impaired.

"My bill would allow that, yes," Tran said.

Existing state law does not put an absolute time limit on abortions and Tran's legislation does not alter that.

Her legislation would reduce the number of doctors who would have to certify late-term abortions are needed from three to one. It would also delete the requirement that doctors determine that continuing a pregnancy would "substantially and irremediably" impair a woman's health. Instead doctors would only have to certify that the woman's health was impaired.


And I've been very clear for quite some time that I'm against killing babies, regardless of the justification(s).

Nathan wrote:
B. Technically perhaps not, but in reality yes it did. The Republican justices actively decided to overturn RvW, allowing laws such as the 6-week abortion ban in Texas to remain in place.
In reality, it did not. It returned the power to legislate to the states, which is where said power belongs.


The reality of the situation regarding state abortion laws is this: given some time and a few election cycles, states which restrict or ban abortions are going to feel both the budgetary realities of having more unwanted children, and the pressure from the electorate to enact reasonable abortion laws. Within 4-6 years, I'd wager that most states adopt a 12-week window (as the bulk of the civilized world has), with strict exceptions after for the health of the mother.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The powers of the Federal Government are supposed to be limited: create/manage the military, deal with foreign nations, deal with immigration/secure the borders (which they are not doing), set the national budget, create/oversee post offices, manage conflicts between States, etc. Everything else is supposed to be a State issue--driver/marriage/hunting/fishing/other licenses, abortion, voting conditions, education, etc.

Beginning with FDR, the Federal Government has claimed far too much power for itself, powers which were never intended for the Federal Government to have.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

After Dobbs, what should Catholics think about bodily autonomy? [Analysis]

Quote:




A pro-life activist holding a crucifix joins a protest outside the U.S. Supreme Court building Dec. 1, 2021, in Washington, ahead of the court hearing oral arguments in the case Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, an appeal from Mississippi to keep its ban on abortions after 15 weeks of pregnancy. (CNS/Reuters/Jonathan Ernst)


Is bodily autonomy a genuine right? In the wake of the Supreme Court's decision to reverse Roe v. Wade, based on the argument that the Constitution was not intended to protect personal autonomy, it's a question Catholics need to ask. As Catholics, we do not believe the United States Constitution, nor any political document, dictates our rights. Rather, we look to natural law informed by revelation.

It is widely recognized among both conservative and progressive Catholics that the right to life is genuine, and not contingent upon legislative rulings. However, there seems to be less of a consensus, and not just among Supreme Court justices, about the right to bodily autonomy. One issue may be that people are not clear on what bodily autonomy is. Some are suspicious of the term because they associate it with radical individualism, or the kind of moral irresponsibility we saw from anti-vaccine advocates during the pandemic. Conservatives are often wary of the idea because they associate it with defenses of legalized abortion, or with sexual excess.

Bodily autonomy is, simply, self-ownership. It has to do with a human's right to make decisions about their own bodies without violence, coercion or systemic oppression. Violations of bodily autonomy include slavery, forced marriage, rape, forced sterilization and medical experimentation. These acts violate a person's dignity and rights even if they are not enforced through direct threats of violence or intimidation.

Humans have a right to make decisions about their bodies and be free from physical coercion. Regardless of how the U.S. Supreme Court interprets the Constitution, in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization or elsewhere, bodily autonomy remains a fundamental, if limited, right on account of the nature of the human person. And one need not look to contemporary ideas from feminist thinkers to defend this right. One can look at the Catholic ethical tradition itself.

We understand a human's right to life in relation to the nature of the person. As Christians, we believe humans are made in the image of God and are good in ourselves, regardless of our utility, desirability, talents or even our moral character. A human life has nonnegotiable ethical value. Similarly, our right to bodily autonomy is connected to our imaging of the divine. Though we do not possess absolute freedom or perfect self-possession, still we reflect the absolute metaphysical self-sufficiency of God, in our capacity to rule over ourselves.

St. John Paul II understood the importance of autonomy in the life of the person. Writing as Karol Wojtyla in Person and Act, he stressed that if we want to understand the real being or nature of the human person per se, we need to clarify what is meant by personal acting, as opposed to nonpersonal acting. In this, John Paul was simply following the Scholastic maxim that "action follows being" — that is, to understand a being's nature, watch how that being acts. It is an instruction in practical metaphysics.

So, what kind of acting is proper to persons? What kind of action reveals the person fully flourishing? To put it simply, personal action is autonomous action — action arising out of inner depth and freedom, not in response to stimuli or coercion. Even Thomas Aquinas understood this, writing in Summa Theologiae that "persons are not acted on, but act through themselves."

[…]

Understanding the person as an acting subject is one step toward recognizing the right to bodily autonomy. The next is understanding that humans, in our Christian philosophical anthropology, are not just disembodied intellects. We are embodied beings. Our bodies, contrary to what Plato suggested, are not prisons or containers for our personal minds. Our bodies are us. Therefore, personal autonomy does not refer simply to the freedom of the disembodied consciousness housed within a material organism. If we were to regard the human person this way, we would regard things done to a person's body as done only to their impersonal physical shell. But this view is false. What is done to one's body is done to that person.

Denying a person autonomy when it comes to decisions about their body violates human dignity because it violates the person's nature as an acting, embodied subject. A society that refuses to see bodily autonomy as real and deserving of protection is a breeding ground for abuse. Nonetheless, in the United States, too many remain reluctant to recognize it as a right. New York Times columnist Tish Harrison Warren recently wrote a piece referring to bodily autonomy as a "myth." Her argument rests on two claims: first, that bodily autonomy is "limited by our obligation not to harm others"; second, that bodily autonomy "denies the deep interdependence and limitations of every human body."

Warren is not the first to argue against bodily autonomy based on the idea that it is not an absolute right. It is a weak argument, however. That a right is limited does not mean that it is not real. Other rights that we recognize as real we also recognize as limited, including the right to property, and the right to self-defense. Some defenders of capital punishment even argue that the right to life is limited. That does not mean it is not real.

Obviously, our freedom to do what we like with our bodies is limited by our responsibility to respect the rights of others, according to Catholic social teaching on the common good. This was highlighted throughout the pandemic, when we saw that decisions to attend crowded events, decisions not to mask, decisions not to be vaccinated, have ethical implications for the larger community.

But restrictions on communal behavior, for the sake of the common good, do not violate personal autonomy per se. Asking a person who has been infected with a dangerous virus not to travel on a plane is not in the same moral category as forcibly vaccinating someone against their will — which is why our public health authorities did not do this.

Similarly, belief in bodily autonomy does not deny our interdependence or our limitations. We are not in danger of imagining we are gods, just because we recognize our own right to self-ownership. We know how powerless, how vulnerable, how mortal we are. We exist in a space of tension between this knowledge, and our belief in our own self-ownership, and irreducible moral worth.

The real danger we face is in the opposite direction. For most of our history in the United States and much of the western world we have failed to recognize and protect bodily autonomy. Our Christian nations have committed genocide, enslaved persons, experimented on the disabled, punished LGBTQ people and denied women agency over our bodies. In recent decades we have come closer to understanding that society must protect bodily autonomy if it is to be healthy. We have also come closer to having a reckoning regarding our many atrocious failures in this regard.

Now, when even a New York Times columnist who is an ordained Anglican woman priest casts doubt on the validity of bodily autonomy, we seem to be reverting to the worst of our past, expanding on the worst of our present. We are dredging up a deadly philosophical worldview in which some persons are denied self-ownership and autonomy, and treated instead like objects, like possessions.

Recognizing bodily autonomy as a legitimate good comes with various ethical and legislative challenges, and how we legislate about abortion is certainly one of them. It means that in our public life we will be faced with complex situations that are not always easy to resolve and may have no perfect solution. But the fact that our political and moral life is complicated is no reason to jettison the notion of bodily autonomy. Rather, we need to take seriously our responsibility to craft a culture in which all rights are protected, in the context of care for the common good.

What this looks like in practice is a discussion we need to have — but we can't have it with people who view bodily autonomy as just a myth.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2022 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Pro-life leaders strongly criticize Minnesota attorney general’s alert about pregnancy centers

Quote:




Women’s Life Care Center in Little Canada offers a full range of services for women in unplanned pregnancies, but is among pro-life pregnancy centers now being targeted by state Attorney General Keith Ellison via a consumer alert he issued on Aug. 23. | DAVE HRBACEK / THE CATHOLIC SPIRIT


Twin Cities pro-life leaders decried an Aug. 23 consumer alert issued by Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison criticizing the state’s crisis pregnancy centers, with one leader calling it “horribly disingenuous and harmful.”


The impact of Ellison’s statement is to besmirch the good work of pregnancy resource centers and put people on notice that he has a target on their back, said Jason Adkins, executive director and general counsel for the Minnesota Catholic Conference.

“Of course PRCs should be truthful about what services they offer and what they do not,” Adkins said. “Not all of them have medical staff, nor do they hold themselves out as having such resources.”

Many focus on connecting women with housing and providing a safe, non-judgmental environment where women can access clothing and other support, Adkins said. “But this alert is a solution in search of a problem.”

Ellison’s alert states that “many so-called Crisis Pregnancy Centers (CPCs) may pose as reproductive healthcare clinics despite not providing comprehensive reproductive healthcare to consumers,” and some don’t provide any health care services at all. The alert can be found at ag.state.mn.us/abortionrights.

“CPCs are private organizations that attempt to prevent or dissuade pregnant people from accessing their constitutionally protected right under the Minnesota Constitution to a safe and legal abortion,” Ellison’s alert states.

Executives at Minnesota pregnancy resource centers — or what Ellison called crisis pregnancy centers — and leaders in the pro-life movement disagree with that premise. Vaunae Hansel, president of the Eagan-based nonprofit Elevate Life, is one. Hansel, whose organization provides training and resources to a network of 37 pregnancy resource centers in Minnesota and western Wisconsin, said she was deeply saddened because the alert is not factual. She encourages people with questions to visit a local pregnancy resource center and ask about its services.

Of the alleged problems listed in Ellison’s report, Hansel took issue with all eight except for a phrase in one of them — that the number of crisis pregnancy centers may, in fact, outnumber abortion clinics in Minnesota by about 11:1. That may be possible, she said.

Adkins said he thinks Ellison hopes to generate complaints against pregnancy resource centers, impose penalties and provide excuses for lawmakers to try to cut Positive Alternatives Grant funding, a state program that provides funding to some pregnancy resource centers as they “promote healthy pregnancy outcomes, and assist pregnant and parenting women in developing and maintaining family stability and self-sufficiency,” as the state’s Catholic bishops described it in June.

John Stiles, deputy chief of staff and media spokesperson for the Minnesota Office of the Attorney General, said several reasons prompted the attorney general’s alert. Ellison has issued other consumer alerts, including those addressing technology-related scams or warnings to be wary of door-to-door sales, he said. And the office has heard from some consumers who have concerns about “misrepresentations that some of these crisis pregnancy centers make,” Stiles said, such as not necessarily providing the services that they claim to offer.

Because crisis pregnancy centers are unregulated under Minnesota law, the attorney general wanted to use the power of his office to let people know that they should be careful and ask exactly what services are provided and which are not, Stiles said.

But above all, the timing was prompted by national attention “suddenly focused on the right to abortion by the Supreme Court’s Dobbs decision,” Stiles said.

[…]

Brian Gibson, executive director of St. Paul-based Pro-life Action Ministries, said Ellison’s consumer alert was “horribly disingenuous and harmful to these amazing places that help out so many in need.”

“He was supposed to be defending laws that would help protect women who are going for abortions, and he failed miserably in doing his duty there,” Gibson said. “And now he’s attacking the very places that offer real, concrete help, generously helping women all the time, helping families.”

Tens of thousands of people have been helped by crisis pregnancy centers over the years, Gibson said, and tens of thousands of babies’ lives have been saved “and he’s attacking them without knowing what they do. He’s taking the word of pro-abortion activists, of which he is one, with no knowledge of the truth.”

Last year, Elevate Life affiliates offered educational and, in many cases, medical services including ultrasound and pregnancy testing, to more than 7,500 clients, Hansel said. The organization’s values align with the Catholic Church’s, but it is not directly connected with the Church, she said.

Hansel said that among other things, she takes issue with Ellison’s consumer alert claim that CPCs do not counsel or provide accurate information about available abortion services.

“We provide medically accurate information on all of their options, including abortion,” she said. “We encourage all of our centers to use the Minnesota Department of Health’s (printed) piece ‘If You’re Pregnant.’ We don’t refer for or provide abortions, but we do provide medically accurate information from the Minnesota Department of Health on abortion and abortion procedures.”

The consumer alert also states that more than 95% of CPCs do not provide prenatal or wellness care to “pregnant consumers, and a majority do not even provide prenatal referrals.” Hansel said that is not true.

For example, Options for Women East, an Elevate Life affiliate on St. Paul’s East Side, provides full prenatal care at no cost to clients, she said. And Options for Women St. Croix Valley in Oak Park Heights, another affiliate, also offers prenatal care.

“Every one of our centers provide referrals for prenatal care,” Hansel said — and usually three referrals, so women have a choice.

Ellison’s actions on abortion are selective and appear to be ideological, Adkins said, noting that the 2021 Minnesota Department of Health abortion statistics report indicated five babies were born alive during abortion procedures and left to die? That is against the law,” Adkins said, citing statute 145.423.

“Is A.G. Ellison investigating the providers where those deaths took place?” Adkins asked. “Is he ensuring abortion clinics are safe places for women, despite evidence that abortion clinics, among other things, facilitate sex trafficking of minors?”

With Ellison up for reelection this November, he might want to look “really good” to his base, which is “pro-abortion,” Gibson said. “It’s not surprising in that sense that they’re making these statements and … some in their base get charged up to go vote.”

‘Designed to Deceive’

Attorney General Keith Ellison’s consumer alert referred to “a recent comprehensive study of the CPC industry” with a link to a report published by The Alliance: State Advocates for Women’s Rights and Gender Equality. The report published data for centers in select states, including Minnesota, in a document titled “Designed to Deceive: a Study of the Crisis Pregnancy Center Industry in Nine States”.

The Alliance describes itself as “a collaboration of state-based law and policy centers working across the country to advance gender equality at the intersection of reproductive rights, economic justice, LGBTQ+ equality, and gender-based violence.”

The focus of its work is to ensure “equitable access to evidence-based reproductive health care and to secure transparency and accountability in government-funded programs for pregnant people.” To that end, the Alliance’s website says, it partners with California Women’s Law Center and researchers across the country “to examine the expanding network of crisis pregnancy centers, which are anti-abortion organizations that undermine the reproductive autonomy of vulnerable pregnant people while purporting to assist them.”

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Michigan bishop calls for Catholics to ‘fight like heaven’ against pro-abortion amendment

Quote:




Voters at a polling station in Detroit, Mich., fill out their ballots Nov. 3, 2020. (Credit: Rebecca Cook/Reuters via CNS)


NEW YORK — The bishop of Lansing is calling on Catholics to “fight like heaven” to oppose a pro-abortion amendment to the state’s constitution in a direct response to Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s consistent message that she will “fight like hell” for reproductive freedom.

“What does that look like? First, we have to employ the three great spiritual weapons of the Christian life: Prayer, fasting and almsgiving,” said Bishop Earl Boyea in a new pastoral letter read during diocesan Masses this past weekend. “Second comes action.”

The amendment in question is the Reproductive Freedom for All Initiative.

Per the amendment’s text, if passed it will codify the right to an abortion into Michigan law; allow the state to prohibit abortion after fetal viability — the point that a fetus is able to survive outside the womb, which is typically considered to be 24 weeks — unless the procedure is needed to protect a patient’s life or physical or mental health; prohibit the prosecution of anyone who helps a pregnant individual get an abortion; and invalidate all state laws that conflict with this amendment.

The amendment will appear as Proposal 3 on the state’s general election ballots this November. Boyea, citing how the amendment technically allow for abortions up until the point of birth, described it in the letter as “the most extreme abortion proposal this country has ever witnessed.”

[…]

If approved, the amendment would invalidate a 1931 near total ban of abortion on the books.

That law has been subject to its own legal battles since Roe was overturned, preventing it from going into effect. Most recently, Whitmer applauded a Sept. 7 Michigan Court of Claims decision to strike down the law, ruling that it violates the Michigan Constitution. The state’s Republican-controlled legislature can appeal the decision, but all would be for naught if the amendment went into effect.

“I will be using every tool in my toolbox to protect women, nurses and doctors here in Michigan,” Whitmer said after the decision, later echoing her promise to “fight like hell for reproductive freedom.”

Part of the response to the amendment Boyea is employing in the Diocese of Lansing is a 54-day Rosary Novena beginning on Sept. 15, and ending on the eve of polling, Nov. 8, for both laity and clergy.

“This will be 54 days of prayer, fasting and almsgiving in union with the Blessed Virgin Mary who is the Queen of Family, the mother of all mothers and the patroness of the unborn,” Boyea said. As far as the “action” aspect of the response, the bishop wrote that the diocese is cooperating with the Michigan Conference and Right to Life of Michigan to oppose and defeat the ballot proposal. Together, the entities have created an umbrella campaign called Citizens Support for MI Women and Children.

“The most important frontline in this battle for life and love, however, will be the local parish,” Boyea concluded. “It will be you. If each of us does what we can — including prayer, sacrifice and action — we will overcome this attack on life. It’s as dramatic and as simple as that.”

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make Democrats Defend Their Abortion Extremism

Quote:
Sen. Lindsey Graham has introduced the "Protecting Pain-Capable Unborn Children from Late-Term Abortions Act" which would limit abortions past 15 weeks of pregnancy. The bill includes exceptions for rape and incest, offers protections for the woman's life, and prohibits the prosecution of those seeking abortions. By any objective historical standard, it's a moderate bill.

..........

So let Democrats treat a Republican bill that's more permissive than abortion laws in Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Spain, as the coming of the Republic of Gilead. Within the European Union, only Sweden (at 18 weeks) and the Netherlands (at 22) feature laws more lenient than the one Senate Republicans are proposing. But, of course, it's not as if Democrats would accept Swedish or Dutch limits, either.

Forget 15-week restrictions, Democrats have opposed 20-week heartbeat bills in the Senate on three occasions. The left doesn't support a single restriction on terminating a pregnancy--not at the detection of a heartbeat, not at viability, and sometimes, not even after birth. Not long after then-Virginia Gov. Ralph Northman infamously described the negligent homicide of an unwanted child, Senate Democrats blocked unanimous consent on Ben Sasse's Born-Alive Abortion Survivors Protection Act - a bill that did nothing to limit abortion, but simply protected babies lucky enough to survive the procedure. Not a single coherent, much less moral, argument for opposing the specifics of the bill was offered. There never is.


So to be clear, the GOP is offering up a bill that would codify abortion up to 15 weeks into law, with exceptions for rape and incest, as well as the mother's health, and prohibit the criminalization of women seeking abortions.

And the Democrats are against it.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue is only important to them to rile up their base. If they actually cared about it, they would have codified Roe long ago. They've controlled Congress and the Executive several times since Roe was passed--at least three that I can remember. Clinton, Obama, Biden all had the chance. Republicans, on the other hand, take this issue seriously. They had their trigger laws already in place years before this ruling. That's how you know someone is serious about it.

Now they have a chance to codify an abortion law that the vast majority of people would actually support, and they are against it because it would take the issue off the table (no more riling up the base) and because they can't stand to hand Republicans a victory, much less handing them one of their pet issues.

So, screw women's right to an abortion! I guess.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Now they have a chance to codify an abortion law that the vast majority of people would actually support, and they are against it because it would take the issue off the table (no more riling up the base) and because they can't stand to hand Republicans a victory, much less handing them one of their pet issues.
Exactly. Democrats don't care about women or abortion rights, they care about issues that they can fundraise with.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:
Make Democrats Defend Their Abortion Extremism

Quote:
Sen. Lindsey Graham has introduced the "Protecting Pain-Capable Unborn Children from Late-Term Abortions Act" which would limit abortions past 15 weeks of pregnancy. The bill includes exceptions for rape and incest, offers protections for the woman's life, and prohibits the prosecution of those seeking abortions. By any objective historical standard, it's a moderate bill.

..........

So let Democrats treat a Republican bill that's more permissive than abortion laws in Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Spain, as the coming of the Republic of Gilead. Within the European Union, only Sweden (at 18 weeks) and the Netherlands (at 22) feature laws more lenient than the one Senate Republicans are proposing. But, of course, it's not as if Democrats would accept Swedish or Dutch limits, either.

Forget 15-week restrictions, Democrats have opposed 20-week heartbeat bills in the Senate on three occasions. The left doesn't support a single restriction on terminating a pregnancy--not at the detection of a heartbeat, not at viability, and sometimes, not even after birth. Not long after then-Virginia Gov. Ralph Northman infamously described the negligent homicide of an unwanted child, Senate Democrats blocked unanimous consent on Ben Sasse's Born-Alive Abortion Survivors Protection Act - a bill that did nothing to limit abortion, but simply protected babies lucky enough to survive the procedure. Not a single coherent, much less moral, argument for opposing the specifics of the bill was offered. There never is.


So to be clear, the GOP is offering up a bill that would codify abortion up to 15 weeks into law, with exceptions for rape and incest, as well as the mother's health, and prohibit the criminalization of women seeking abortions.

And the Democrats are against it.


This should be left for individual states to decide. Period.

This also happens to be the GOP's stated position.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Слава Україні wrote:
Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:
Make Democrats Defend Their Abortion Extremism

Quote:
Sen. Lindsey Graham has introduced the "Protecting Pain-Capable Unborn Children from Late-Term Abortions Act" which would limit abortions past 15 weeks of pregnancy. The bill includes exceptions for rape and incest, offers protections for the woman's life, and prohibits the prosecution of those seeking abortions. By any objective historical standard, it's a moderate bill.

..........

So let Democrats treat a Republican bill that's more permissive than abortion laws in Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Spain, as the coming of the Republic of Gilead. Within the European Union, only Sweden (at 18 weeks) and the Netherlands (at 22) feature laws more lenient than the one Senate Republicans are proposing. But, of course, it's not as if Democrats would accept Swedish or Dutch limits, either.

Forget 15-week restrictions, Democrats have opposed 20-week heartbeat bills in the Senate on three occasions. The left doesn't support a single restriction on terminating a pregnancy--not at the detection of a heartbeat, not at viability, and sometimes, not even after birth. Not long after then-Virginia Gov. Ralph Northman infamously described the negligent homicide of an unwanted child, Senate Democrats blocked unanimous consent on Ben Sasse's Born-Alive Abortion Survivors Protection Act - a bill that did nothing to limit abortion, but simply protected babies lucky enough to survive the procedure. Not a single coherent, much less moral, argument for opposing the specifics of the bill was offered. There never is.


So to be clear, the GOP is offering up a bill that would codify abortion up to 15 weeks into law, with exceptions for rape and incest, as well as the mother's health, and prohibit the criminalization of women seeking abortions.

And the Democrats are against it.


This should be left for individual states to decide. Period.

This also happens to be the GOP's stated position.
Ummmmmmm......no kidding.

Point being that the Democrats have done nothing for 50 years to codify legal abortion into federal law, and are now fighting doing so because they'd then be unable to whip up their base with pathetic fearmongering.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This should be left for individual states to decide. Period.

This also happens to be the GOP's stated position.


[edit: I think I misspoke about what the law will allow]

Additionally, your response completely ignores the Dems' reaction to it. We hear so often how the two sides should work together. Well, here's your chance, Dems. Do you mean it? This would prohibit the criminalization of women seeking abortions. It would protect abortion from being outright banned. Those aren't worthy compromises? That's a huge freaking gift the Reps are offering up.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:
Now they have a chance to codify an abortion law that the vast majority of people would actually support, and they are against it because it would take the issue off the table (no more riling up the base) and because they can't stand to hand Republicans a victory, much less handing them one of their pet issues.
Exactly. Democrats don't care about women or abortion rights, they care about issues that they can fundraise with.


Exactly. As with so many other issues, Democrats don't want to do anything about the situation, they want only to whine about the situation and hold fundraisers or march in the street.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ignoring Nanny's inanity, the salient point here - and the GOP should be hammering this in every single interaction with the press and the public - is that in the nearly 50 years since the Roe decision, the only party to advance a bill to codify the right to an abortion into law is the Republicans.
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Rodney King was caught on video being kicked and beaten to death - none of those police officers were investigated.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stacy Abrams, failed politician wrote:
There is no such thing as a heartbeat at six weeks. The idea of a heartbeat at six weeks of pregnancy is a manufactured sound designed to convince people that men have the right to take control of a woman's body.


What happened to "follow the science"? Both medical doctors and even Planned Parenthood agree that the heart is developed enough to begin beating at 6 weeks.

You can't make up shit this crazy and stupid.

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Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


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People who collude together don't oppose each other's desires. Trump stood up to Putin. Biden caved.


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