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Can someone explain to me the reasons behind hating Jews?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:12 pm    Post subject: Antisemitism Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Addressing the rise in antisemitism [Podcast]

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Protesters marched silently in front of the restaurant Gasthof zur Gemutlichkeit in north Minneapolis in response to a recent World War II reenactment dinner party at the restaurant that featured Nazi flags and men dressed in SS uniforms. This is just one example of an increase of antisemitism county wide and in Minnesota. | Judy Griesedieck for MPR News





Last year, reports of violence, harassment and vandalism targeting Jewish people reached an all-time high. That’s according to the Anti-Defamation League, which has tracked hate incidents since 1979. And they say they expect to see similar numbers this year.

On Monday, the White House announced that President Joe Biden will create a task force to address antisemitism and other forms of religious bigotry.

This comes after several celebrities, politicians and other public figures have spread anti-Jewish rhetoric.

The rapper Ye, formerly known as Kanye West, praised Adolf Hitler on the podcast InfoWars earlier this year. And he was recently banned from Twitter for inciting violence after he posted an image of the swastika over the Star of David.

Former President Donald Trump also made headlines recently when he had dinner with Ye and Nick Fuentes, a white nationalist internet figure and Holocaust denier.

MPR News host Angela Davis talks with three guests about what is behind the rise in antisemitism and how we can address it.

Guests:
  • Pamela Nadell is a professor of women’s and gender history and the director of the Jewish studies program at American University in Washington D.C. She is currently working on a book about the history of antisemitism.
  • Yair Rosenberg is a writer at The Atlantic. He writes the "Deep Shtetl" newsletter and covers the intersection of politics, culture, and religion.
  • Rabbi Marcia Zimmerman has been senior rabbi at Temple Israel in Minneapolis for 20 years.

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    — Pope Francis, Meeting of papal diplomats, Sept. 17, 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2022 7:30 pm    Post subject: Antisemitism Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Whoopi Goldberg renews incendiary assertion that Holocaust wasn’t about race

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This image released by ABC shows co-host Whoopi Goldberg on the set of the daytime talk series "The View." (Jenny Anderson/ABC via AP)


In interview, ‘The View’ host labels Holocaust ‘white on white violence,’ echoing remarks made in January that led to her two-week suspension from US talk show.


US actress and producer Whoopi Goldberg once again claimed on Saturday that the Holocaust was not connected to race, less than a year after similar comments led to her two-week suspension as host of “The View.”

In an interview with The Sunday Times of London, Goldberg said that the Nazi-orchestrated genocide was “white on white” violence, and not about race.

“Remember who they were killing first. They were not killing racial; they were killing physical. They were killing people they considered to be mentally defective. And then they made this decision,” she said.

When the interviewer noted that the Nazis viewed their victims as lesser races, Goldberg replied: “Yes, but that’s the killer, isn’t it?”

“The oppressor is telling you what you are,” she continued.” Why are you believing them? They’re Nazis. Why believe what they’re saying?”

Explaining that Jews are not identifiable as a race, she said: “It doesn’t change the fact that you could not tell a Jew on a street. You could find me. You couldn’t find them. That was the point I was making. But you would have thought that I’d taken a big old stinky dump on the table, butt naked.”

Goldberg was promoting her new film, Till, in which she plays the mother of civil rights activist Mamie Till-Mobley. The movie tells the true story of Till-Mobley’s quest for justice after her son, 14-year-old Emmett Till, was lynched by white supremacists in Mississippi in 1955.

[…]

Goldberg, born Caryn Elaine Johnson, has no Jewish ancestry but adopted her stage name to be deliberately Jewish-sounding, in part because she has said she personally identifies with Judaism. She told a London audience in 2016: “I just know I am Jewish. I practice nothing. I don’t go to temple, but I do remember the holidays.” In 2016, she designed a Hanukkah sweater for Lord & Taylor.

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"It is not enough to point the finger or attack those who do not think like us. That is a wretched tactic in today's political and cultural wars, but it cannot be the method of the Church. Our gaze must be extensive and deep. The formation of consciences is our first duty of love, and this requires delicacy and perseverance in its implementation."
    — Pope Francis, Meeting of papal diplomats, Sept. 17, 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2022 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think what she says is completely right, because the nazis identified jews - AFAIK - based on ancestry. Also, some people could identify jews on the street based on prior association in addition to documentary evidence of their ancestors. Also, I'm under the impression that black people were subjected to the conditions of the Holocaust, so that would be racial, wouldn't it?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What does an amateur political pundit making politically incorrect statements about the political topic of racism have to do with religion and spirituality?

Why is Wos the only person on the Watch allowed to post about politics?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:44 pm    Post subject: Antisemitism Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Holsety wrote:
I don't think what she says is completely right, because the nazis identified jews - AFAIK - based on ancestry. Also, some people could identify jews on the street based on prior association in addition to documentary evidence of their ancestors. Also, I'm under the impression that black people were subjected to the conditions of the Holocaust, so that would be racial, wouldn't it?


Here's something Yair Rosenberg wrote in his newsletter last January, when Whoopi made her first [or at least, first widely-reported] misstep regarding Jewry. (Whether or not Yair would still maintain she's not an Antisemite, I do not know.)



Are Jews a Race? [Explainer, Analysis]

Quote:






(Credit: Dia Dipasupil/Getty Images)


Whoopi Goldberg’s Holocaust comments reflect how Jews don’t fit into Western boxes.


Yesterday [Jan 31, 2022], celebrated actor and TV host Whoopi Goldberg caused a minor meltdown on ABC’s The View when she asserted that the Holocaust “isn’t about race.” Later that day, she joined The Late Show With Stephen Colbert and expanded on these remarks in an uncomfortable exchange, insisting that “the Nazis were white people, and most of the people they were attacking were white people.”

As countless commentators pointed out, this line of thinking is profoundly mistaken. The Nazis were obsessed with race and defined the Jews as their racial inferiors, which is how they justified exterminating them. This is why the Nazis targeted anyone with a Jewish grandparent, regardless of whether the person identified as Jewish or not. Nazism was a blood-based doctrine of racial supremacy, and its consequence was the genocide of the Jews. The very term anti-Semitism, which casts Jews in racial terms, was popularized by a German anti-Jewish activist who wanted to give his hatred a scientific sheen. Race is a social construct, and this is how it was constructed in Nazi Germany and much of Europe.

[…]

How Do You Define Jews?

Goldberg is not an anti-Semite, but she was confused — and understandably so. In my experience, mistakes like hers often happen because well-meaning people have trouble fitting Jews into their usual boxes. They don’t know how to define Jews, and so they resort to their own frames of reference, like “race” or “religion,” and project them onto the Jewish experience. But Jewish identity doesn’t conform to Western categories, despite centuries of attempts by society to shoehorn it in. This makes sense, because Judaism predates Western categories. It’s not quite a religion, because one can be Jewish regardless of observance or specific belief. (Einstein, for example, was proudly Jewish but not religiously observant.) But it’s also not quite a race, because people can convert in! It’s not merely a culture or an ethnicity, because that leaves out all the religious components. And it’s not simply a nationality, because although Jews do have a homeland and many identify as part of a nation, others do not.

Instead, Judaism is an amalgam of all these things — more like a family (into which one can be adopted) than a sectarian Western faith tradition — and so there’s no great way to classify it in English. A lot of confusion results from attempts to reduce this complexity to something more palatable for contemporary conceptions.

This is just my off-the-cuff explanation. One could write a book about this topic — scholars have — and still not exhaust its nuances. Over the years, smart people have used terms like “civilization” or “peoplehood” or “tribe” to describe the Jewish collective, but because those words are not as straightforward to the average person, I prefer “family.” Whichever label one employs, I hope that the above explanation provides a starting point for those trying to understand the nature of Jewish identity, and helps them avoid the trap of imposing outside ideas on it.

[…]

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"It is not enough to point the finger or attack those who do not think like us. That is a wretched tactic in today's political and cultural wars, but it cannot be the method of the Church. Our gaze must be extensive and deep. The formation of consciences is our first duty of love, and this requires delicacy and perseverance in its implementation."
    — Pope Francis, Meeting of papal diplomats, Sept. 17, 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:28 pm    Post subject: Antisemitism / Fascism Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Survey finds ‘classical fascist’ antisemitic views widespread in U.S.

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A woman leaves a candle in front of the Tree of Life synagogue after 11 people were killed during a 2018 shooting in Pittsburgh. (Salwan Georges/The Washington Post)


At points in the past half-century, many U.S. antisemitism experts thought this country could be aging out of it, that hostility and prejudice against Jews were fading in part because younger Americans held more accepting views than did older ones.

But a survey released Thursday shows how widely held such beliefs are in the United States today, including among younger Americans. The research by the Anti-Defamation League includes rare detail about the particular nature of antisemitism, how it centers on tropes of Jews as clannish, conspiratorial and holders of power.

The survey shows “antisemitism in its classical fascist form is emerging again in American society, where Jews are too secretive and powerful, working against interests of others, not sharing values, exploiting — the classic conspiratorial tropes,” Matt Williams, vice president of the ADL’s year-old Center for Antisemitism Research, told The Washington Post.

The study uses a new version of surveys the ADL has been doing in America since the 1960s in order to get at the specific nature of antisemitism, and what makes it different from other types of hate. Its new metric is centered on affirming or rejecting 14 statements, including whether Jews: “have too much control and influence on Wall Street,” “are more willing than others to use shady practices to get what they want,” or are “so shrewd that other people do not have a fair chance.”

The ADL’s center was created in response to a spike in the past few years of reported incidents of antisemitic violence and harassment, as well as a rise in antisemitic rhetoric from high-profile public figures.

[…]

It is difficult to assess whether antisemitic views have increased over time, given changes in the survey’s response options as well as how respondents were sampled. The survey was conducted in September and October among a national sample of 4,007 adults online through AmeriSpeak, a randomly sampled panel of U.S. households maintained by NORC at the University of Chicago.

Williams and some experts who helped review the study noted that it shows the views of Americans under 30 and those of Americans over 30 are very similar. Of Americans ages 18 to 30, 18 percent said six or more of the statements were true, while among those 31 and older, 20 percent did. Of younger Americans, 39 percent believed two to five statements, while among the older group, 41 percent did.

“It used to be that older Americans harbored more antisemitic views. The hypothesis was that antisemitism declined in the 1990s, the 2000s, because there was this new generation of more tolerant people. It shows younger people are much closer now to what older people think. My hypothesis is there is a cultural shift, fed maybe by technology and social media. The gap is disappearing,” said Ilana Horwitz, one of the survey’s reviewers, and an assistant professor of Jewish studies at Tulane University.

The “pervasiveness” of antisemitic tropes the study shows is what’s most interesting, Horwitz said. Even the fact that 3 percent of Americans say all of the original statements are “mostly or somewhat true” is alarming, she said.

[…]

The new research also delved into the differences between believing anti-Jewish tropes and negative sentiment toward Israel and its supporters.

“One of the findings of this report is that antisemitism in that classic, conspiratorial sense is far more widespread than anti-Israel sentiment,” Williams said.

The report highlighted that 90 percent of Americans agreed Israel “has a right to defend itself against those who want to destroy it” and that 79 percent agreed Israel is a “strong U.S. ally in the Middle East.” However, 40 percent at least slightly agreed that Israel “treats Palestinians like Nazis treated the Jews,” and 17 percent disagreed with the statement “I am comfortable spending time with people who openly support Israel.”

[…]

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    — Pope Francis, Meeting of papal diplomats, Sept. 17, 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:17 pm    Post subject: Antisemitism / Fascism Reply with quote

+JMJ+

European Jewish Congress Shocked and Appalled by Russian FM’s Holocaust Reference

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(Source: EJC)


(Wednesday, January 18th, 2023) — The European Jewish Congress has expressed its shock and concern following comments today by Russian Federation Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov comparing Western governments’ support for Ukraine to Hitler’s Final Solution which resulted in the murder of six million Jews in the Shoah.

Lavrov claimed on Wednesday that the United States had put together a coalition of European states to solve the “Russian question” in the same way that Hitler had organised a Final Solution for Europe’s Jews.

“We are shocked and appalled by this shameful comparison drawn by Minister Lavrov between the actions of a coalition of democratic countries and Hitler’s persecution and murder of six million Jews in the Shoah,” EJC President Ariel Muzicant said.

“This is Holocaust distortion at its most basic level and we call on Mr. Lavrov to unequivocably apologise and withdraw these comments,” he added.

Mr. Lavrov claimed the West is “waging war against our country with the same task: the “Final Solution” of the Russian question.

“This is not the first time the minister has used Holocaust equivalence and Hitler references,” Musicant pointed out. “This must stop. As we mark in the coming days International Holocaust Remembrance Day, the day that the Red Army liberated Auschwitz, the memory of Holocaust victims must never be used in such an appalling manner.”

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    — Pope Francis, Meeting of papal diplomats, Sept. 17, 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
What does an amateur political pundit making politically incorrect statements about the political topic of racism have to do with religion and spirituality?

Why is Wos the only person on the Watch allowed to post about politics?


Agreed.

All Wos does is posts links without making comments. Is he/she trying to make a point in some direction? No clue. I don't even read it. I don't come here to read links. This is a discussion forum. Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
[…]

All Wos does is posts links … I don't even read it. … Laughing


Hey now. I remember ya read — and even seemed to appreciate — my post re: Marquette U's Tolkien Archives.

Wink
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"It is not enough to point the finger or attack those who do not think like us. That is a wretched tactic in today's political and cultural wars, but it cannot be the method of the Church. Our gaze must be extensive and deep. The formation of consciences is our first duty of love, and this requires delicacy and perseverance in its implementation."
    — Pope Francis, Meeting of papal diplomats, Sept. 17, 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wosbald wrote:
+JMJ+

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
[…]

All Wos does is posts links … I don't even read it. … Laughing


Hey now. I remember ya read — and even seemed to appreciate — my post re: Marquette U's Tolkien Archives.

Wink


Ok, once every three years I read a link. Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't usually read Wos' screenshots. I usually read the link to title. If it smacks of politics, I read the screenshot.

Racism is certainly used by politicians. But it is, by no stretch of the imagination, an exclusively political topic.

I'm not sure discussions of the Nazis are political discussions. They were the government of Germany at the time, so, yes, in a very broad sense. But not in the sense that there will be Dems or Reps arguing for them, and the other arguing against.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the issue was discussed previously, it was in the Racism thread of the Tank. In what sense is discussion of current events that are racially charged philosophy or spirituality?

Can I start a thread about global warming in the Loresraat? That should be nothing more than a scientific issue. What if I mentioned Al Gore’s recent unscientific claim about the oceans boiling?

Maybe I’ll do just that …. but if Wayfriend chimes in again with an unfounded accusation of someone holding a scientific belief for “weird personal reasons,” as he did recently, I hope the mods here will enforce the civility that they pretend is so damn important. He couldn’t have made a more blatant personal attack if he’d come out and said, “I personally attack thee.”
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know what post of wayfriend's you're talking about.

Racism is, first and foremost, a moral issue. It's an issue about whether or not it's acceptable to treat people differently based solely on their race. Of course, it can be uses for political purposes. Not many things can't. But there's no reason it can't be discussed without political overtones.

Global Warming is, first and foremost, a scientific issue. Is the earth warning up because of things humans have done? Why not a thread for it?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

While Racism would seem to be an undoubtedly apt Close topic — questions of Identity & Difference having, in addition to the moral aspect F&F mentioned, fundamental Philosophical import for both Metaphysics and Ontology (not to mention Theological import) — the laser-focus of this thread appears to be Jewish identity. An identity which is irreducible to Race. In fact, a post above directly addressed said irreducibility.

The Money-Quote:

Wosbald's quoted article wrote:
[…]

… Jewish identity doesn’t conform to Western categories, despite centuries of attempts by society to shoehorn it in. This makes sense, because Judaism predates Western categories. It’s not quite a religion, because one can be Jewish regardless of observance or specific belief. (Einstein, for example, was proudly Jewish but not religiously observant.) But it’s also not quite a race, because people can convert in! It’s not merely a culture or an ethnicity, because that leaves out all the religious components. And it’s not simply a nationality, because although Jews do have a homeland and many identify as part of a nation, others do not.

Instead, Judaism is an amalgam of all these things — more like a family (into which one can be adopted) than a sectarian Western faith tradition — and so there’s no great way to classify it in English. A lot of confusion results from attempts to reduce this complexity to something more palatable for contemporary conceptions.

[…]



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    — Pope Francis, Meeting of papal diplomats, Sept. 17, 2016
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