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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the UK edition, that's where the Theomach/Kenaustin Ardenol thing is brought up, and the apparent contradiction is passed off as "you didn't ask, so we didn't tell". I assume it must be the same part that Cail's referring to, as it's a good example of how the introduction of the Insequent screws up continuity.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

478 is where we meet the Giants, and one tries to kill Linden. (Would have been the best part of the book!! LOL)

Cail wrote:
Very valid points. However, I'm not terribly impressed with SRD's sense of continuity.

I'd forgotten that passage in ToT, so it's entirely possible I'm talking out of my butt due to my frustration with the way the story's gone.

But I think there are enough clues (which may well be red herrings) dropped that it's certainly possible that there's only one Staff.

As I've said, I'm not done yet, but I'm really disappointed at how the story's gone. Aside from my feeling that the story was nicely wrapped up 20 years ago, I think that TRotE and (so far) FR are pale imitations of what has gone before.

I about puked on page 478.
I agree with that entire post. I'm not at all a fan of the Final Chrons so far, and I'd be surprised if SRD manages to turn me around. It looks to me that he's trying to do something he considers important, and he thinks it's more important than continuity. I disagree. (Then there's the stuff I just plain don't like about it, but I've discussed some of that elsewhere anyway.)

Anyway, yeah, since he is doing damage to the continuity, maybe this is just another instance of it.

Or maybe there truly are two SoL's in time. Maybe we'll find out. (Maybe not.)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
478 is where we meet the Giants, and one tries to kill Linden.

Okay, so there really is a massive difference between the page numbers in the UK and US editions, heh. Ignore my previous post.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmmm. Cail, why did the appearance of the Giants bother you so much?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murrin wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:
478 is where we meet the Giants, and one tries to kill Linden.

Okay, so there really is a massive difference between the page numbers in the UK and US editions, heh. Ignore my previous post.
"Massive" indeed! Stave begins telling that story on 361 in my edition. lol
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murrin, that passage bugged me too.

DLB-The best way I can describe it is like.....OK, remember Three's Company?. Decent series, and when it was over, there really wasn't more of the story to tell, was there? But then came The Ropers. OK, well....I was a fan of the original show, so I gave it a chance. Well, while they were flailing away trying to tell a story that really didn't need to be told, every once in a while the doorbell would ring, and...Hey look! It's Jack! ....ooohhhh, who could that be? Hey look! It's Janet!

The final Chrons are to the original Chrons what The Ropers was to Three's Company (or After M*A*S*H was to M*A*S*H).

It's good to hear that I'm not alone in my frustration Fist. I have a nasty, nasty feeling that there's going to be some sort of circular story (similar to King's Dark Tower) that is going to end up being very unsatisfying.

But to me, Kevin's Dirt is a contrivance and a poor man's Sunbane. Having the Giants show up in the same manner that they did in TWL is just plain lazy.

But ultimately I think the story's unnecessary. Sure, I'd like more Chrons, but (unless SRD blows me away with the final two books) I simply don't care about the story he's attempting to tell. Moreover, with the exception of Liand's Braveheart-like speech to the Woodhelvennen, there's not been a single moment in the last two books that has affected me like anything from the first six books. TRotE and FR are simply not as well written, and certainly not as arresting.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, uh...it seems that most people don't like this book.

WOW--I loved it, although I loved Runes.

I love how they are so Anti-chiche fantasy, and the story line is very unique.

I personally don't think the author is going to let us down, I don't the the Insequent are going to be who they apear to be...I seriously doubt that that are these Anti-Elohim that have just been doing a good job hidding up to now. I think that they both far more...and far less than that. but for fear that my assumption will be shot down, I'll reserve my thoughts on them until much later.

A request though...can everyone stop using the term Duex ex Machina?
It donesn't really roll off the tongue.

And why call a new race of characters nothing more than plot devises...hell you might as well say that Bannor was a plot device, there to keep Covenant alive. Or Lena was a plot devise, used to supply Covenant with the guilt (and daughter) he needed, or the White Gold Ring was a plot devise, or Drool Rockworm, or Lord Foul, or Thomas Covenant.
We were briefly introduced to The Madoubt in Runes, everyone wanted to know more of her mysterious ways, but because she didn't end up being Berek's Queen, she and her whole race are nothing but filler? come on.

Donaldson wrote a great Fantasy series back in the seventies, that was like nothing anyone had seen (at least since the fifties). He then followed it up with an equally astounding bit of writting in the early eighties, but many people were turned off, because it wasn't the same as the first chrons-any many readers liked the whinning scardey-cat less than the rapist jerk. I think Donaldson was wrong when He decided to wait until he became a better writter to tackle the Final Chrons...I think he should have waited until then to write the SECOND chrons, becuase then the Final wouldn't seem like such a jump.

Personally, I only have a couple of complaints...they may have ben disscussed earlier, perhaps if they were, someone would be kind enough to provide me with a link...
...I didn't like the battle Royal too much--I liked it, but I thouhgt that the Sandgorgans were too much,
...also, who is Damelon's mother?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will grant Donaldson this much: If Fatal Revenant had ended halfway through, with the end of Part I, I would have been very satisfied with the story and eager to see where he went with it.

Part II was a mess, for the following reasons: the second part was, essentially, nothing more than the moving of Linden and her allies from where they were to where they need to be; and--probably because it was otherwise empty--it was the vehicle into which Donaldson has dumped every piece of exposition for the novel, rather than introducing things at a more reasoned pace.
This glut of exposition could also be overlooked, if it were not for the fact that the new things exposited for a large part are themselves contrived and either contradict or cheapen the events of the earlier novels.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murrin wrote:
Part II was a mess, for the following reasons: the second part was, essentially, nothing more than the moving of Linden and her allies from where they were to where they need to be; and--probably because it was otherwise empty--it was the vehicle into which Donaldson has dumped every piece of exposition for the novel, rather than introducing things at a more reasoned pace.
This glut of exposition could also be overlooked, if it were not for the fact that the new things exposited for a large part are themselves contrived and either contradict or cheapen the events of the earlier novels.
Absolutely.

Drew, the issue I have with this "new race" is that they're not new to SRD's new vision of the story. Somehow though, in 10,000 years of the Land's history that we know of (not to mention a visit to Brhathairealm and, er......Elohimland(?)), they've never come up. That's D.E.M., and that's (to me) just cheap. It's the same complaint I had about the Worm in ToT.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SRD said that he wanted to wait until he had the tools he needed to tell the story he had in mind. Then he said he still doesn't have them, but he needs to get moving anyway, because he and dirt are getting to have more and more in common. Alas, I don't have a clue yet as to what he has in mind. There's nothing unexpected about her bringing Covenant back. Of course that was gonna happen. No way it wasn't gonna happen. I assume the real thing is what Covenant is gonna do now that he is back. (And the fact that the real questions is What will Linden to with/to Covenant now that she's brought him back? REALLY doesn't help matters!!) Surely the events in these two books are not the extraordinary story he was saving himself for, so, imo, we've got two books of nothing worthy of following up the first two Chrons - the best fantasy ever written. I wasn't happy with RotE, but figured there were three more books, and that could be a perfectly good setup for them. Now, I'm not happy with the first two books, and he's gotta be unimaginably good in the last two to make the Final Chrons incredible as a whole.

And the inconsistencies are only demonstrating that he doesn't have the tools. He can't do whatever it is he wants to more seamlessly than he's doing.

The Insequent are certainly fun, and nice to have someone smacking the Elohim around. But I'd really like an explanation for them. We know why the Elohim are so powerful, and the descriptions of them and their attitudes have been among the most amazing things in the most amazing story I've ever read (Books 1-6). But we didn't get any explanation of how the Insequent could be as powerful as Earthpower incarnate.

Hey Romeo and Mouseglove (Where the heck is Mouseglove, anyway??), don't tell SRD I said all this, ok? Lol!
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh, yeah I can just picture the dedication in the next book: "Thanks to everyone at Kevin's Watch, except Murrin, Fist, and Cail. F.U. guys."

I know one thing that really bugs me is that SRD did such a masterful job creating the Earth that the Land is in in the first 6 books(with the possible exception of the Worm). That is absent from the last 2. Rather, he seems content that we're gonna swallow anything he throws at us without question....The problem being that until now, everything pretty much made sense and was consistent. Now suddenly there are these contrivances and inconsistencies that don't fit in with the established story. This is especially frustrating for me since I've lived with these stories for nearly 30 years.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Thanks to everyone at Kevin's Watch, except Murrin, Fist, and Cail. F.U. guys


Some people has to have the Thankless job, so why not the above.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Malik23 wrote:
exnihilo wrote:
malik's and other's consternation with Linden's inner state being the focus of the novel seems to be missing the point to me:

exnihilo wrote:
malik, WADR I refuse to argue with you in this forum --


So you just want to throw out reasons why I'm wrong, but don't want me to defend my position? I'm confused about you refusing to argue with me if you're willing to tell me where I'm wrong.

Malik, I am stating my opinion but that does not mean I want to argue about it. You have already made your point at length, and my additional remarks were meant to be clarifying if not necessarily persuasive. All of us are just talking out of our butts here anyway -- it's not like we're speaking about something we really know about, like solving all the world's problems. If you want to argue about THAT I am more than willing to do that in the proper forum. I'm neither equipped nor disposed to have an argument here, and nobody is right or wrong here they just have different takes.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

exnihilo wrote:
Malik, I am stating my opinion but that does not mean I want to argue about it. You have already made your point at length, and my additional remarks were meant to be clarifying if not necessarily persuasive. All of us are just talking out of our butts here anyway -- it's not like we're speaking about something we really know about, like solving all the world's problems. If you want to argue about THAT I am more than willing to do that in the proper forum. I'm neither equipped nor disposed to have an argument here, and nobody is right or wrong here they just have different takes.
No big deal. I don't care if you want to debate this or not. I know I can be unrelenting and stubborn, and since we're "talking out of our butts," debate can seem pointless after a while.

Mainly, I was just wondering why you sounded so adamant about it ("I refuse!"). I thought maybe I had offended you, or that you thought a new Donaldson book was too precious to argue about. But if it's simple indifference or a wish to avoid a pointless debate, I can understand that.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I finished it.

I'm not happy with it at all. The well-crafted world and stories that SRD created in the first six books has been replaced with standard-fare fantasy conventions, contradictions, and things that just don't make sense.

Anyone wanna buy a once-read copy of both Runes and FR? I doubt I'll read 'em again.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
The final Chrons are to the original Chrons what The Ropers was to Three's Company (or After M*A*S*H was to M*A*S*H).


God, that's funny. The return of the giants in a way very similar to the 2nd Chrons bugged me, too, but I would have never made the connection to 70s-80s TV shows. Good call.

Cail wrote:
But to me, Kevin's Dirt is a contrivance and a poor man's Sunbane.


Yeah, it also seems a very inefficient way to make Linden too powerful. In the 2nd Chronicles, LF achieved a similar goal with the venom. That's specifically targeted to Covenant. But Kevin's Dirt affects an entire realms for the sole purpose of affecting Linden's control of her power.

Quote:
But ultimately I think the story's unnecessary. Sure, I'd like more Chrons, but (unless SRD blows me away with the final two books) I simply don't care about the story he's attempting to tell. Moreover, with the exception of Liand's Braveheart-like speech to the Woodhelvennen, there's not been a single moment in the last two books that has affected me like anything from the first six books. TRotE and FR are simply not as well written, and certainly not as arresting.
Well said.
F&F wrote:

Surely the events in these two books are not the extraordinary story he was saving himself for . . .
Certainly not. Sadly, I get the same feeling from the first 2 Star Wars prequels: he started at the wrong point. (I've always thought Lucas should have started with Anakin already in training, instead of a goofy little kid, then spent a lot more time making his "fall" seem believable.) I'm not sure how the first two books of the LC could have been compressed or skipped, but I still find myself waiting for them to "get to the good stuff." Certainly waiting for the real Covenant to appear has contributed to this.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OH!! I forgot to say... Three's Company is the most pathetic show in tv history!!!
AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL
I can't even say how much I hate it!!!!
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: I assume it must be the same part that Cail's referring to, as it's a good example of how the introduction of the Insequent screws up continuity.

You know, I still have trouble seeing the problem here. Why do we assume that nothing new can enter the story? Is that also the root of THOOLAH, that Linden was not present in the first trilogy therefore she ought not have been introduced in the second? I can easily imagine the Insequent going about their business for millennia and having nothing to so with the Land, just as the Bhrathair and Elohim and Sangorgons did and so what if Donaldson didn't even sneak their name into the earlier books?

Re: Somehow though, in 10,000 years of the Land's history that we know of (not to mention a visit to Brhathairealm and, er......Elohimland(?)), they've never come up.

For, what?, 10000 plus years in the history of Europe two whole continents just to the west were utterly unknown. Again, why is it impossible that the Land's Earth contains things and peoples that the Land (which for all its beauties and glories has been pretty insular and isolated) has just never encountered?

Re: But Kevin's Dirt affects an entire realms for the sole purpose of affecting Linden's control of her power.

And the Sunbane was a vast atrocity upon the entire Land, yet also served the purpose of driving Linden to despair. It was the exact equivalent of the venom with which Foul afflicted TC, intended to cripple Linden and leave no choice for her but the one he wanted from her.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
Well, I finished it.

I'm not happy with it at all. The well-crafted world and stories that SRD created in the first six books has been replaced with standard-fare fantasy conventions, contradictions, and things that just don't make sense.

Anyone wanna buy a once-read copy of both Runes and FR? I doubt I'll read 'em again.


What specifically do you find to be run-of-the-mill, needlessly contradictory, or just ga...er, lame?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aleksandr wrote:

You know, I still have trouble seeing the problem here. Why do we assume that nothing new can enter the story? Is that also the root of THOOLAH, that Linden was not present in the first trilogy therefore she ought not have been introduced in the second? I can easily imagine the Insequent going about their business for millennia and having nothing to so with the Land, just as the Bhrathair and Elohim and Sangorgons did and so what if Donaldson didn't even sneak their name into the earlier books?

But Donaldson didn't have Sandgorgons turn out to be the secret reason why every significant event in the Land's history happened. I think the Insequent's crucial, revisionist role is the problem, not their appearance out of nowhere. We're talking about the entire canon of the Chronicles completely reinterpreted just for the sake of having a handful of "cool" characters. That's completely different from the introduction of Sandgorgons on another continent. One would expect new creatures on a different continent which you have to use a giant ship to sail to. One would not expect that Berek's "awakening," the 7 words, the original Staff of Law, the reason the Bloodguard formed, the guardian of the One Tree, etc. were crucially dependent upon a heretofore unmentioned race of super wizards.
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For, what?, 10000 plus years in the history of Europe two whole continents just to the west were utterly unknown. Again, why is it impossible that the Land's Earth contains things and peoples that the Land (which for all its beauties and glories has been pretty insular and isolated) has just never encountered?


Again, you're missing the point. No one is complaining that he invented something new--but rather that this something new is the reason why everything we know happened. This would be like a scientist claiming that human civilization was the product of interfering aliens--which is completely different from the idea of Europe discovering the Americas. It would completely undermine everything we previously took for granted; it would render human history as something contrived and not-our-own. It would be a violation, not a mere modification.

And the idea of crucial events depending upon unseen influences wouldn't necessarily be a bad move if the original story had depended upon such a structure to begin with. If SRD had the Insequent in mind all along--and did so for a reason crucial to the plot--then there would be nothing wrong with revealing a reinterpretation of what has gone before. That would be badass! But this wasn't built into the original story from the beginning. It wasn't necessary. It wasn't even part of that story. It is a fundamental modification done 30 years after the fact for (as far as we can tell) cheap thrills.

I do admit, however, that Donaldson has done an amazing job at fitting them into his story. If he had claimed they were intended all along, I'd be skeptical, but I wouldn't be able to disprove his claim.
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And the Sunbane was a vast atrocity upon the entire Land, yet also served the purpose of driving Linden to despair. It was the exact equivalent of the venom with which Foul afflicted TC, intended to cripple Linden and leave no choice for her but the one he wanted from her.


Good point. I mean that.

But you've got to admit the Sunbane was orders of magnitude cooler. Even the name is cooler. "Kevin's Dirt." Why not Mhoram's Mud? Prothall's Pollution? Or Elena's Icky Sky Haze of Doom? It's silly, and not very dangerous when you realize how easy it is to negate its effects. The Sunbane was something that made simply walking around a catastrophically dangerous task. Meanwhile, KD makes things not look as pretty.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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