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Fourth Ward
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:24 pm    Post subject: Fourth Ward Reply with quote

I've been trying to find out that when High Lord Kevin had the Staff of Law was it shod with metal heels. Do you suppose the people of the ancient Land mined for iron? I don't!
I imagine Kevin made the heels from natural metals, like meteor ore.

I think that when Kevin lost the Staff to Foul's trickery he replaced the original heels with two that he got Drool and his minions to make. That's why Foul laughed at the Lord's when they rested the Staff from Drool.

Foul will always be able to corrupt the use of the Staff of Law.

Where the original heels might be I havn't a clue. Vain was able to discover the location of the heels in revelstone. Will the Elohim be able to discover the location of the original heels? Do they already know where they are? Can we find them before Stephen Donaldson tells us?

This then is the Fourth Ward. The SWITCH.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High Lord Tolkien wrote:


Laughing Laughing Laughing


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good start.

My first impression was that Gibbon Raver was sitting on them, or to be more accurate, they were hidden beneath the floor. But why then did the Haruchai outcast return to the Dancer's of the Sea. If the original heels were really in the cave of the Isle where the One Tree was, the Haruchai would need the help of the Dancer's to reach the sunken Ilse. If so, then Kevin's Heels were brought back to the Land, and I assume they have been placed in Revelstone. But where can they be?

Supplimentary: The Elohim live at the end of time. They dwell in the last tree to stand before all is lost and forgotten. They don't want to awaken the Worm because it will take eons to return to Elemesnedene. But I still look forward eagerly to the awakening of the Worm.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, now I see what you're saying.
Lets go back to the origin of the metal used for the heels.
The Creator had a staff of wood that was harder than stone.
But his staff had no heels.
Where were they?
The Creator was blind, perhaps he just misplaced them, hence the meteor.
Were they truly under Gibbon like you supposed or or perhaps hidden somewhere else.
No other object in the Land has heels except for the Lady Alif.
And speaking of her lets go back to wood that's harder than stone.
The 4th Ward couldn't possibly have held the real Heels because Amok rode Sandgorgons with them.
No, if the Worm is under the One Tree then the Heels must be under Mt Thunder.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin didn't make the Staff of Law; Berek did.


Dorriender Corishev was fairly civilized by Berek's time; they must have mined for and forged metals, just not in the actual Land.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure that Berek made the Staff. The Giants hadn't arrived in the Land untill Damelon's time, so he couldn't have reached the Isle of the One Tree.

But I'm probably wrong...my hisstory is russty!!!
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krazy Kat wrote:
I'm not sure that Berek made the Staff. The Giants hadn't arrived in the Land untill Damelon's time, so he couldn't have reached the Isle of the One Tree.

But I'm probably wrong...my hisstory is russty!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<ducks in, reads a bit, scratches head, gets headache from extrapolating far far beyond the original works, laughs at HLTs posts, questions own memory of the chronicles, determines to read them all again soon, pauses, burps pensively, ducks out.>
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

feel free to point out the mistakes, i'm sure there's lots more than i think

1.

Lord Mhoram was sitting in his room looking at Elena's anundivian yajna sculpture. He had been laughing for almost an hour and his sides hurt with an acute pleasure he had not felt for a long time. Over the last few months a renewed mirth had been growing coincidently with the steady return of his oracular vision.

With Thomas Covenant's departure - and the demise of Lord Foul - from the Land, Mhoram's dreams had also become more focused. The dark memories and the horrors of war that Revelstone had faced had slowly melted with the winter snows, subdued like the healing of old wounds. It was as if Andelain had breathed a deep sigh of relief spreading health and beauty to the four corners of the Land like wildfire. This rapid change had stretched out the long summer months and the denizen's of Revelstone filled them with the hard work of reparation equalled only by their joy and festivities impossible to repress.

But Mhoram had been kept idle through no choice of his own. Wherever he sought to provide help or guidance to the Lorewardens, the Hearthralls, Hirebrands, Hafts, the Gravlingases, the farmers, Cattleherders, horse-tenders, cooks, or the Craftmasters, his offer was kindly refused. So when Lord Amatin knocked on his door he welcomed her inside with a glow of anticipation.

She entered with an air of bouyancey, her arms folded across her chest, as if to contain words too long to be spoken in one breath. Lord Mhoram gave her the time to collect herself by setting out some refreshments on the stone table next to the open window. Once they were seated Amatin told him her news.
"The Lorewardens are gathering at the gates and will be ready to leave soon. We've had word that two-hundred Woodhelvenin have crossed the White River. We can start with the rebuilding of Revelwood immediately."
"So soon!" Lord Mhoram said, genuinely surprised. "This is glad news."
"You will still come with us?" she said.
"Of course I will. I've been meaning to visit Kurash Plenethor. I think it's time I saw what's left of it."
Amatin's thoughts seemed to leap towards something significant in Mhoram's words, but before she could tell what it was the High Lord continued.
"I'm pleased to have this time alone with you," he said.
"I wanted to ask if you'd spoken with Bannor before he left Revelstone?"
Amatin shook her head. "Not really. Our conversation was brief."
But then she remembered something more, and smiled. "I gave him a big hug," she said, "but the best he could do was raise an eyebrow."
Mhoram seemed to drift away, lost in his thoughts.
"What's troubling you?" She asked.
"I don't know," he replied. "That's why I want to visit the Rock Gardens."
It was then that Amatin noticed the bone statue.
She gazed at it for a short while, but when she spoke she turned her head to look out the window.
"I miss her, Mhoram," she said. "I miss her lots."
Lord Mhoram smiled crookedly and placed a hand on her forearm. "We all do, Amatin," he said. "We all do."

Together they left the room and went down through the keep to meet the Lorewardens.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krazy Kat wrote:
I'm not sure that Berek made the Staff. The Giants hadn't arrived in the Land untill Damelon's time, so he couldn't have reached the Isle of the One Tree.

But I'm probably wrong...my hisstory is russty!!!


It's mentioned in the second book that the Bhraithrair are experts at fashioning iron. If Berek is wandering around that part of the world picking up do-it-yourself staff making supplies, he might have stopped by. Just a thought.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, nowhere does it say that the Giants are the only way for someone to sail the seas.

And Kat, that's beautiful! Feel free to continue Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We should probably note that the Warward was equipped with metal swords and breastplates, so obviously some iron acquisition is going on somewhere. Probably at least part of the Stonedowner lore involves singing metals out of the ores or something like that.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it explicitly stated somewhere that they are metal? I've always kinda wondered if they weren't stone, sort of like larger versions of the Stonedownor knife TC has for a while. Of course, stone swords could get heavy, so there's every chance I'm wrong here.....
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It always felt like iron to me.

Iron, by the way, is actually heavier than stone thickness-for-thickness; it's just that iron (at least properly forged) is considerably tougher and less brittle that stone, so you can have a much thinner and therefore lighter metal sword instead of a stone blade.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very likely They Traded with the rock delving Cavewights during Bereks Time, I know they had to have found lots of metal digging around in mount thunder. they probably even taught the people of the land to how to Forge/smith it before Foul got into their heads.

not much is mentioned about the smith crafting or any crafthalls whatsoever..but we know they existed because of the Hall of Gifts. not so much craft halls but anundivian Yajna and surupamaerl Masters among other unwritten crafts.


my guess is the Cavewights said look...this is much stronger than stone.."I BREAK YOUR STONE SWORD WITH SMALLER HARDER SWORD" GIVE US SPRINGWINE AND WE SHOW YOU HOW TO MAKE SWORD WITH METAL" Very Happy something along that line...

It mentions the warward having metal Breastplates and Hile Troy Had a Yellow metal breastplate with a black bar across it.. just from recollection, I got done with TIEW about a week ago.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoiler:
FR does not give a reply as to the heels of the staff but does state the Theomach lead Berek to the One Tree, for his own ends but guided him none the less. That gives you the wood and iron was plentiful after the war, all those swords spears and armor to be utilised some how.


[mod edit]
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thor, let's not put FR spoilers in a Runes thread, please!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to everyone for responding in this thread. Especially HLT, your post forced me to focus on the heart of the matter.

The reason I wanted to know about the issue of metaleurgy, was because I had been forming a theory that the people of the Land - in the days of High Lord Kevin - shod their mount's with iron horseshoes. I was thinking that when Kevin faced Lord Foul on the slopes of Mount Thunder and uttered the Ritual of Desecration, then maybe he had rode there on Kelenbhrabanal. This doesn't stray too far from the legends in the storyline.

Both, of course, died. And Kevin had lost the Staff of Law.
Lord Foul couldn't physically touch the staff, I'm sure, so he took the four horseshoes from Kelenbhrabanal and forged the staff's heels. This is why I believe the Staff of Law has caused nothing but trouble, all the way back to LFB. It was Foul's masterstroke.

The fourth Power Word is then khabaal.
(so when the 'words of power' are spoken in the correct sequence, ie melenkurion being the seventh, then the full force of all Kevin's lore is brought to bare.

OK HIGH LORD TOLKIEN, FIRE AWAY Smile

As for the short, short story, I wanted to take a look behind the scenes at the making of the mosiac in the Hall of Gifts. The idea (which actually sprang from Wayfriends story: Nom's Garden) was that when High Lord Mhoram visited the Rock Gardens, he realised that one day far into the future, Covenant would inevitably return to the Land. He went back to Revelstone and commissioned the Craftmasters to construct the portrait of High Lord Kevin on the floor of the Hall. It was his gift of council to Covenant, rather cryptic, but a gift nonetheless.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: Fourth Ward Reply with quote

Krazy Kat wrote:
Where the original heels might be I havn't a clue. Vain was able to discover the location of the heels in revelstone. Will the Elohim be able to discover the location of the original heels? Do they already know where they are? Can we find them before Stephen Donaldson tells us?


The one's that vain found are the original ones. Returned to Revelstone after TPTP. How they were constructed is, at best an intelligent guess, but all the evidence points to them being present on the SOL at the ROD. As to putting horse shoes on any of the rhanyhyn, if they don't accept saddles I doubt very much that any power would compel them to accept horseshoes.

Foul always used another to use the SOL as it was designed specifically to oppose his machinations, else there would be no need to call Elena back for the dead to wield the staff for him.

Wayfriend- In my defense we are warned to expect spoilers but I did hide it to minimize impact, it is on topic and has/had bearing on the disscussion.

Hold faith all

THH out
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