Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Text Error
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant -> The Runes of the Earth
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Vader
Black

Male
Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1861

Thanks: 6
Thanked 28 Times in 27 Posts

Location: On the lam
7216 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demondim-spawn wrote:
I myself dislike intensely a lot of The One Tree, simply because of what I consider the unrealistic relationship betwixt Covenant and Linden at that point of the story. When she's pining for him, Covenant is bogged down in his misunderstanding of Linden's feelings, and vice versa. Then it goes back and forth and on and on. And on. Interminably.


I sometimes think while reading "Why the hell people don't TALK to each other and instead of constantly thinking about what others might think when clearly they don't. Same in FR - I enjoy reading it but I can't say I can always follow Linden's thinking. I would act totally different. If something bothers me I say it and don't start playing mind games.
_________________
Functionless art is vandalism. I am the vandal.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
Seareach
A sailor went to...

FemaleRanyhyn
Joined: 22 Sep 2004
Posts: 5856

Thanks: 6
Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts


9450 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caamora1 2007 Watchies1 Coercri


PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vader wrote:
...I can't say I can always follow Linden's thinking. I would act totally different. If something bothers me I say it and don't start playing mind games.


See, I actually "get" her (follow her thinking). Her second-guessing makes sense to me (because I'm the queen of second-guessing! Big Grin)
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
insect
Guest









0 White Gold Dollars

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Vraith-

I'm not going to search through TOT and WGW as if they are the bible to find quotes in regards to the tension between linden and covenant because she felt she was more capable at using his ring than he was, the example of her grabbing his hand on one occasion and using his ring to heal someone, and the significant element of the plotline that those examples highlighted (the belief by the elohim that she was the rightful wielder). If you read the books, then it's disingenuous of you to demand me to.
Back to top
Loredoctor
Forensic Researcher

Male
Joined: 14 Jul 2002
Posts: 18609

Thanks: 24
Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts

Location: Melbourne, Victoria
3110 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Calm Horizons1 2007 Watchies1 Ventrue Clan


PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

insect wrote:
Hey Vraith-

I'm not going to search through TOT and WGW as if they are the bible to find quotes in regards to the tension between linden and covenant because she felt she was more capable at using his ring than he was, the example of her grabbing his hand on one occasion and using his ring to heal someone, and the significant element of the plotline that those examples highlighted (the belief by the elohim that she was the rightful wielder). If you read the books, then it's disingenuous of you to demand me to.


You cannot make statements and then refuse to back them up, claiming that it's somehow the fault of the refuter to not recall the information. What evidence do you have that you are right? Where are your facts? It seems as though you simply have none.

Really, it's a simple argument technique. Ever been to college/university? Laughing
_________________
Waddley wrote:
your Highness Sir Dr. Loredoctor, PhD, Esq, the Magnificent, First of his name, Second Cousin of Dragons, White-Gold-Plate Wielder!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Phoogle Map
insect
Guest









0 White Gold Dollars

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You cannot make statements and then refuse to back them up

Yes I can- if they are statements that should be common knowledge for anyone that's read the books. I'm not required to argue the existence of well known points in the plot. Are you going to next demand that I prove that TC is a leper? If I do so, will you then demand that I prove that the first book in the last series is entitled "runes of the earth"?

Quote:
Really, it's a simple argument technique.


Yes, forcing people to waste time arguing common knowledge is a simplistic argument technique that ranks right up there with "I know you are but what am I?".
Back to top
Vraith
Obligate Metaphor


Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 10620

Thanks: 17
Thanked 100 Times in 97 Posts

Location: everywhere, all the time
31675 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Raver1 Wraith1 Caesure


PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demondim-spawn wrote:
I don't think anyone's opinion ought to dismissed out of hand, regardless of any less than cordial tone it may be embedded in.

Hmm...but who was dismissing who 'out of hand?' I simply asked for justification, and was refused [though I will admit repeating the 'less than cordial tone'].
Quote:

I myself dislike intensely a lot of The One Tree, simply because of what I consider the unrealistic relationship betwixt Covenant and Linden at that point of the story. When she's pining for him, Covenant is bogged down in his misunderstanding of Linden's feelings, and vice versa. Then it goes back and forth and on and on. And on. Interminably.

hmmm...I thought the relationship pretty realistic considering their personalities...but agree that it was less than riveting.
insect wrote:

Hey Vraith-
I'm not going to search through TOT and WGW as if they are the bible to find quotes in regards to the tension between linden and covenant because she felt she was more capable at using his ring than he was, the example of her grabbing his hand on one occasion and using his ring to heal someone, and the significant element of the plotline that those examples highlighted (the belief by the elohim that she was the rightful wielder). If you read the books, then it's disingenuous of you to demand me to.

It is not at all disingenuous if I have read them and disagree with your conclusion.
Look, it is perfectly acceptable to say "I don't like [whatever]," and leave it at that. Matter of taste. As soon as you claim an objective problem with the work or author, though, more is required. In those books, Linden needed some sort of intermediary/bridge to use WG. The Elohim have shown themselves to be utterly unreliable in word and deed.
And the use of wild magic is problematic: Linden's nature/abilities require both structure and precise control...wild magic, by its nature, opposes both of them. It's like using dynamite to weed your garden.
Loremaster wrote:

Really, it's a simple argument technique.


insect wrote:

Yes, forcing people to waste time arguing common knowledge is a simplistic argument technique that ranks right up there with "I know you are but what am I?"

This would be true, in general. But the statement you made was, in fact, not 'common knowledge' since others, with valid reasons, dispute your statement.
_________________
Spoiler:
Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.

the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Demondime-a-dozen-spawn
Fresh out of the Warren inside Mappo Trell's sack


Joined: 24 Apr 2009
Posts: 447

Thanks: 9
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts

Location: Minnesota/Wisconsin DMZ
864 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH


PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
Hmm...but who was dismissing who 'out of hand?' I simply asked for justification, and was refused [though I will admit repeating the 'less than cordial tone']

My apologies. insect is getting less of the bum's rush here in this topic. I should have posted my comment in the topic that insect made: "Why does SRD make it so hard for himself?" or some such title. There, he was dismissed out of hand as just a troll who should hit the road if he doesn't like the Chronicles.
_________________
Meets or Exceeds International Humane Kill Standards.



Perpetual Motion or Until the Rubber Band Wears Out Motion
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Phoogle Map
insect
Guest









0 White Gold Dollars

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As soon as you claim an objective problem with the work or author, though, more is required.


That depends on whether I would emerge victorious from a cage match with the author or not. If so then no further argument is required, the screeching lamentation of his women would argue my point for me.
Back to top
Vraith
Obligate Metaphor


Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 10620

Thanks: 17
Thanked 100 Times in 97 Posts

Location: everywhere, all the time
31675 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Raver1 Wraith1 Caesure


PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

insect wrote:
Quote:
As soon as you claim an objective problem with the work or author, though, more is required.


That depends on whether I would emerge victorious from a cage match with the author or not. If so then no further argument is required, the screeching lamentation of his women would argue my point for me.


heh...that's pretty funny, in a way.
Be careful, though...word is that SRD is not slouch in the ring.

And D-S, apology wasn't necessary, truly. [and I may have been dismissive in that other thread...or not, don't recall, but I remember feeling provoked..I'm easily annoyed, but hardly ever offended].
_________________
Spoiler:
Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.

the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Orlion
Clairvoyant

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 6636

Thanks: 17
Thanked 58 Times in 57 Posts

Location: Getting there...
8280 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Dalek1 Member of Linden's Army1 SRD's Green Rock


PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

insect wrote:
The most important "mistake" srd made was in claiming that lyndon all the sudden didn't know how to use white gold when she was more adept at it than covenant was in the last series.


It's not a mistake at all, consider the following:
In the second chronicles, Linden always uses the white gold through something, be it Thomas Covenant (whom she believes is somewhat capable of using the white gold) or the Staff of Law. At the beginning of RotE, she does not have any of these things to help her trigger the power of white gold, and her self-doubt (added on by Esmer's influence) makes it more difficult for her to use it. She's essentially thinking, "I can't use it, so why should I bother?"
_________________
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville

I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!

"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 18662

Thanks: 43
Thanked 191 Times in 183 Posts


32338 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who says that Linden has trouble accessing the white gold in Runes? She saved herself in the destruction of Kevin's Watch without even thinking about it. She used it to create a freakin' caesure (didn't she? Or am I remembering it incorrectly?).

Linden doesn't have trouble accessing the ring herself. It's Esmer's presence--specifically his personified contradiction--which blocks her access. I thought Donaldson made this clear. Maybe it's in Fatal Revenant. Oh well, spoiler alert, if that's the case. Mods do your thing.
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vader
Black

Male
Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1861

Thanks: 6
Thanked 28 Times in 27 Posts

Location: On the lam
7216 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Malik23 wrote:
Who says that Linden has trouble accessing the white gold in Runes? She saved herself in the destruction of Kevin's Watch without even thinking about it. She used it to create a freakin' caesure (didn't she? Or am I remembering it incorrectly?).

Linden doesn't have trouble accessing the ring herself. It's Esmer's presence--specifically his personified contradiction--which blocks her access. I thought Donaldson made this clear. Maybe it's in Fatal Revenant. Oh well, spoiler alert, if that's the case. Mods do your thing.


She produced the ceasure in FR.

Even though she was able to save herself with wild gold subconciously in RoTE when Kevin's Watch fell, she had later problems using it purposely for first the time. To her it was like knowing there was a room somewhere full of power, however she didn't know which door to use. Once she found that door she said she would always find it again. And if it wasn't for Esmer blocking her access to that "room" she would have done so.
_________________
Functionless art is vandalism. I am the vandal.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 20249

Thanks: 11
Thanked 246 Times in 225 Posts

Location: In reality once again
49444 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
3 Member of Linden's Army


PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linden has had an array of obstacles to using wild magic.
+ Kevin's Dirt removing her health sense.
+ Esmer blocking her
+ An inherent conflict with using Law/Staff at the same time.
+ Fear of changing history (when in the past)
+ Not knowing about all of the above leading to self-doubt.

The author has beset her with obstacle after obstacle. It's clearly no "mistake" that Linden can't use the wild magic at all times.
_________________
* I occasionally post things on KevinsWatch because I am a fan of Stephen R. Donaldson; this should not be considered as condonation of the white nationalist propaganda which is posted far too frequently on this website.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 18662

Thanks: 43
Thanked 191 Times in 183 Posts


32338 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points, WF. Yes, the situation is more complex than the assumptions surrounding this apparent "contradiction." And, it should be pointed out that none of the factors you listed were in effect in the Second Chronicles.

Donaldson has made some errors in consistancy. And he has admitted them. But this isn't an error. It's more like a mystery. (Perhaps insect knows this, since he put "mistake" in quotes.)
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aardvriend
Servant of the Land


Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 7

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


55 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a Dutch reader, and I do not know excactly what is meant by the "Close" ? I think you mean it is the area where the Lords held there meetings, and on the balconies the people of the land were hearing the speeches?? Can you please help me out on this one? thanks.

Imagine the above mentioned is correct:
Wasn't the "close" destroyed, or at least damaged in such a way, that Linden indeed never has been in de orginal setting of the "close"?.

Probably I am so wrong here Confused
but a text error so obviously made by SRD, I simply cannot believe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 20249

Thanks: 11
Thanked 246 Times in 225 Posts

Location: In reality once again
49444 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
3 Member of Linden's Army


PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As was said above, they are different places.

The Close is the hall where the Lords held council. That's where, for example, Covenant revealed he had the white gold to the Lords, and where Trell enacted the Ritual of Desecration.

The "Sacred Enclosure" was where Vespers was held. That's where the balconies were, so that all the people of the Revelstone could attend That's where, for example, the Lords tried to heal dukkha Waynhim, and where the master rukh was located.
_________________
* I occasionally post things on KevinsWatch because I am a fan of Stephen R. Donaldson; this should not be considered as condonation of the white nationalist propaganda which is posted far too frequently on this website.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
aardvriend
Servant of the Land


Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 7

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


55 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you very very much Wayfriend, for clearing this out for the Dutch audience Very Happy

I am trying to catch up as much as I can to get familiar with the english (original) names. Mainly by reading lots of old dated posts on the Kevin Watch. Best would be to start reading the chronicles in english ofcourse :/ but that will be a long term project I am afraid.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 20249

Thanks: 11
Thanked 246 Times in 225 Posts

Location: In reality once again
49444 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
3 Member of Linden's Army


PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I figured it was something like that, aardvriend.
_________________
* I occasionally post things on KevinsWatch because I am a fan of Stephen R. Donaldson; this should not be considered as condonation of the white nationalist propaganda which is posted far too frequently on this website.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Remillard
Servant of the Land


Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 9

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


47 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just one fellow's thoughts on the matter, but there seems to be a distinct difference between the use of wild magic by Linden in the second chronicles, and the last chronicles. Remember Covenant had been imbued with venom that removed the usual triggers he was used to having to use. The way I read that is the wild magic was ALWAYS present in some fashion. I don't recall the exact quotes, but it was near the end of The One Tree and White Gold Wielder where he was practicing using it for shaving because ... well he could. So, when Linden used wild magic in that story, she was merely siphoning off some of what was already present. She was always able to manipulate it but she didn't have to generate it. Covenant was the wild magic battery, so to speak.

In the last chronicles, she's more back to the state Covenant was in the first chronicles. She does adequately when it's already triggered, but she's having the same trouble he had getting it initiated. Rather than finding external triggers, she's using her own emotional and mental states to elicit the trigger -- at least when not prevented by Esmer's presence.

Once it starts flowing though, she does pretty much what she wants. Therefore I don't see a discrepancy between the two series, just a matter of perspective.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Orlion
Clairvoyant

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 6636

Thanks: 17
Thanked 58 Times in 57 Posts

Location: Getting there...
8280 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Dalek1 Member of Linden's Army1 SRD's Green Rock


PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent post, Remillard!
_________________
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville

I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!

"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant -> The Runes of the Earth All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch