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TC's last words
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend wrote:
We have to hold out that it's possible that Linden made the right choice, although TC and even the Dead think it is the wrong one. The situation may have passed the bounds of where the wisdom of the Dead is reliable. After all, we are speaking about the End of the World. They may not be able to look beyond that point.

The other thread about Kevin in the other forum reminded me of something. Kevin's appearance in WGW illustrates that the Dead are not always right. They may have unobtainable knowledge, but their conceptions about what people like TC and Linden will do are tainted by who they are, how they look at the world, their issues and misconceptions. They are not Ultimate Wisdom. Their advice is not always good advice.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend wrote:
Wayfriend wrote:
We have to hold out that it's possible that Linden made the right choice, although TC and even the Dead think it is the wrong one. The situation may have passed the bounds of where the wisdom of the Dead is reliable. After all, we are speaking about the End of the World. They may not be able to look beyond that point.

The other thread about Kevin in the other forum reminded me of something. Kevin's appearance in WGW illustrates that the Dead are not always right. They may have unobtainable knowledge, but their conceptions about what people like TC and Linden will do are tainted by who they are, how they look at the world, their issues and misconceptions. They are not Ultimate Wisdom. Their advice is not always good advice.


I personally think that TC isn't horrified over the RESULT of Linden's actions as he told her to "do something they don't expect" and to "find (him)". Instead, I think that he is horrified over the extravegant use of passion and POWER that was used in order to gain the result.

Remember TC has always rejected power.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khalgregar wrote:
Re: Anele = Elena in reverse

I've asked SRD about it in person, and he said that it was just a coincidence, and that he'd not even realised it until after RoTE was released.


Ok then, Anele means "anoint," as I thought originally. Perhaps it means "anointed one" in this context.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another question on what TC said.

What if Covenant was brought back to physical life without remembering his time while being the Timewarden.
What if Linden used so much power that it cause TC not to remember?

He could be reacting to the point where Foul has blasted him and suddenly he not in Mt. Thunder anymore and he's a bit shocked.
He may have said it as an amazement.

But we won't really know until AATE.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
khalgregar wrote:
Re: Anele = Elena in reverse

I've asked SRD about it in person, and he said that it was just a coincidence, and that he'd not even realised it until after RoTE was released.


Ok then, Anele means "anoint," as I thought originally. Perhaps it means "anointed one" in this context.


I bet SRD would change that name if he could. Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe he is simply confused, as in "What have you done, I wasn't paying attention."

Wink


dlbpharmd wrote:
[Anele], I bet SRD would change that name if he could. Wink


Which reminds me: off topic, but when reading this 3rd series, I still sometimes briefly (oh, milli-seconds) get mixed up between Linden and Liand! Why the heck did he choose Liand as a name being it's rather close to the spelling of Linden when you are reading fast?!
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kil Tyme wrote:
Quote:
Which reminds me: off topic, but when reading this 3rd series, I still sometimes briefly (oh, milli-seconds) get mixed up between Linden and Liand! Why the heck did he choose Liand as a name being it's rather close to the spelling of Linden when you are reading fast?!


THANK YOU for saying that. I have continued to struggle with this as well. The two names look so familiar, I often get mixed up and have to go back and reread sentences just to know who is talking. I HAVE wondered why he did that.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiming in - she woke up the worm of the world's end.

Which means she'll need to use even more power to try
to fight that particular being and she'll rive the arch of time
to rubble. Rubble!
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just realized that if TC is the Time Warden, who can see all of history, then he must have known that Linden would resurrect him.

I wonder if that changes anything in how we interpret this.
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Last edited by wayfriend on Mon May 05, 2008 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
I just realized that if TC is the Time Warden, who can see all of history, then he must have known that Linden would resurrect him.

I wonder if that changes anything in how we interpret this.


So you're saying the future is already decided? Though we had plenty of prophetic beings in the series in the past. Foul, Mhoram, Elena, the dead, the Elohim. But their prophecies were not certainties. They were possibilities, high likelihoods. After having them they worked hard to realize them and sometimes failed.

I think Covenant's vision would have worked the same way.


The Ranyhym vision was a nice touch. I thought their warning had already been realized after Linden confronted Roger and Jeremiah under Melenkurion skyweir. But then Linden brought Covenant back to life in Andalain and we're thrown to just the first half of their prophecy (waking the worm).
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kil Tyme wrote:
Maybe he is simply confused, as in "What have you done, I wasn't paying attention."


Okay, that really cracked me up. Laughing

Good topic, though, seriously. I'm glad you folks are here to unpack FR for me, because man, am I lost.
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ur Dead wrote:
Another question on what TC said.

What if Covenant was brought back to physical life without remembering his time while being the Timewarden.
What if Linden used so much power that it cause TC not to remember?

He could be reacting to the point where Foul has blasted him and suddenly he not in Mt. Thunder anymore and he's a bit shocked.
He may have said it as an amazement.

But we won't really know until AATE.



I'm all over this theory.. I think it is a good possibility.... and perhaps as the story progresses, we will see an "awakening" of sorts from TC...

?

(nice one Ur Dead)
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Covenant said "Find me". Then, when she found him, dead in Andelain, he was compelled to be able to do nothing as he was. So I'm pretty sure that resurrecting Covenant in and of itself is not the problem - he was pretty much asking her to do it.


I think I may have already asked this before, but I don't remember if anyone responded or not.

But, how do we know that Covenant said "Find me"? Wasn't all of this through Anele? In theory anyway, I'm not sure how we can be sure of anyone's identity that speaks through him.
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ParanoiA wrote:

But, how do we know that Covenant said "Find me"? Wasn't all of this through Anele? In theory anyway, I'm not sure how we can be sure of anyone's identity that speaks through him.


How do you identify someone when talking with him on the phone? Can someone pretend to be your spouse without you noticing it?

Notice that though Roger copycatted Thomas' appearance and some of his catch-phrases his presence was completely different. He behaved like a different person. Or how about the Elohim that tried to copycat Pitchwife in TOT? He couldn't mimic his most crucial feature: his sense of humor.

When Linden heard Covenant talking to her through Anele (or in her dreams) she recognized him as the man she remembered. He WAS Thomas Covenant.
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see two possibilities: Either, Covenant expected to aid her as a spiritual being, and had no idea that his resurrection was even possible. Or, more likely, he's referring to one of her *other* big decisions on the way.

Note also that I didn't read his "what have you done?" as saying she was *wrong*, merely that whatever she did will have catastrophically bad consequences. But these books are about hard choices. He can pity the price she paid, the depths she was driven to, even if she actually made the right call.

Personally, I think reviving Covenant *was* the right call precisely because it seems wrong. Yes, Lord Foul is probably thrilled, but remember: the kind of manipulation that Foul loves tends ot come back against him. he loves to trick people and make their efforts for good result in evil, so the way to defeat him is often ot go along with him. In the Second chrons, he wanted Covenant to give hi the ring, and when Covenant finally did what Foul wanted, Foul lost. Similarly, I have no doubt that Linden has acted for the most part exactly as Foul wanted-- but that doesn't mean she won't beat him in the end.
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
When Linden heard Covenant talking to her through Anele (or in her dreams) she recognized him as the man she remembered. He WAS Thomas Covenant.

Then again, she was fooled by Roger.
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well whatever TC actually means (and I don't think he's going to get a happy answer!) it's definitely a 'leave em begging for more' scenario on a par with Runes' last line:

'The other stranger was unmistakably Thomas Covenant.'

For my money the most thrilling end to any book I can think of!
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I think all of the possibilities discussed here have merit (and are very entertaining), isn't it just possible that he could mean it in a kind of..."Whoa...I didn't know you could do that? Holy crap, that was amazing" kind of way? Kind of like when someone shows us a magic trick...the first thing many people ask is, "How did you do that!?" Well, maybe TC is having a similar reaction.

I doubt it, but I had to throw it out there as a possibility. I'd probably be pretty darn disappointed if that was all he meant.

Because I will drive myself crazy until I know the truth, I'm going with my 'theory' that it was just a reaction of amazement/astonishment that she was able to do it. It'll keep me sane until SRD graces us with the next book. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
ParanoiA wrote:

But, how do we know that Covenant said "Find me"? Wasn't all of this through Anele? In theory anyway, I'm not sure how we can be sure of anyone's identity that speaks through him.


How do you identify someone when talking with him on the phone? Can someone pretend to be your spouse without you noticing it?

Notice that though Roger copycatted Thomas' appearance and some of his catch-phrases his presence was completely different. He behaved like a different person. Or how about the Elohim that tried to copycat Pitchwife in TOT? He couldn't mimic his most crucial feature: his sense of humor.

When Linden heard Covenant talking to her through Anele (or in her dreams) she recognized him as the man she remembered. He WAS Thomas Covenant.


Yeah, you're probably right. But, I'm still not 100% convinced. Knowing SRD, it's more likely that you are correct. I know he doesn't care too much for cheap surprises, but rather quality ones that surprise you but you really should have seen it coming.

However, he also seems to have been careful to be sure that the "covenant" speaking through Anele doesn't claim himself as covenant directly. (I'm fairly sure anyway, it's been months since I read it)

So, I'm going on record here as saying it is not TC speaking through Anele. I really have nothing to lose....
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
When Linden heard Covenant talking to her through Anele (or in her dreams) she recognized him as the man she remembered. He WAS Thomas Covenant.

Then again, she was fooled by Roger.


Not truly I think. First, her son was there and that totally consumed nearly all of her attention. That was always a filter over all of her perceptions while the two of them were manipulating her.

Secondly, in her heart of hearts, she never believed it was really him, and then later came to the hard conclusion that he wasn't HER Covenant even before the charade was revealed. She just needed to get her conscious brain caught up with what her subconscious had already decided.
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