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TC's last words
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuzzy_Logic wrote:
Personally, I think reviving Covenant *was* the right call precisely because it seems wrong. Yes, Lord Foul is probably thrilled, but remember: the kind of manipulation that Foul loves tends ot come back against him. he loves to trick people and make their efforts for good result in evil, so the way to defeat him is often ot go along with him. In the Second chrons, he wanted Covenant to give hi the ring, and when Covenant finally did what Foul wanted, Foul lost. Similarly, I have no doubt that Linden has acted for the most part exactly as Foul wanted-- but that doesn't mean she won't beat him in the end.


I am with you. I believe it was the right thing to do, and I don't think she did it for the reasons all the bystanders believed. My personal guess is that she wants to give the white gold back to him in some fashion. A great deal of verbage is expended to describe how healing and Law suit her far better than the chaotic nature of the wild magic. She works within the strictures of Law intuitively, however it's not sufficient to accomplish her goals for a number of reasons.

The whole point of "do something they don't expect" suggests that everyone's reactions are going to be misled at the beginning. If they didn't expect it, they don't understand what's going on in her mind. As readers we share a little more of that experience, but Donaldson's been pretty coy with us as well.

The only real danger I can see is that she's getting awfully close to the sort of bargain of displaced responsibility that failed Covenant with Elena. There's plenty of possible consequences about this that will come back and and haunt Linden.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A proper understanding of TC's question can only be had once you know what the last words of his question were lost in the cacophony of theurgy:

"Oh Linden, what have you done... with your hair?"

Razz
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remillard wrote:
Fuzzy_Logic wrote:
Personally, I think reviving Covenant *was* the right call precisely because it seems wrong. Yes, Lord Foul is probably thrilled, but remember: the kind of manipulation that Foul loves tends ot come back against him. he loves to trick people and make their efforts for good result in evil, so the way to defeat him is often ot go along with him. In the Second chrons, he wanted Covenant to give hi the ring, and when Covenant finally did what Foul wanted, Foul lost. Similarly, I have no doubt that Linden has acted for the most part exactly as Foul wanted-- but that doesn't mean she won't beat him in the end.


I am with you. I believe it was the right thing to do, and I don't think she did it for the reasons all the bystanders believed. My personal guess is that she wants to give the white gold back to him in some fashion. A great deal of verbage is expended to describe how healing and Law suit her far better than the chaotic nature of the wild magic. She works within the strictures of Law intuitively, however it's not sufficient to accomplish her goals for a number of reasons.

The whole point of "do something they don't expect" suggests that everyone's reactions are going to be misled at the beginning. If they didn't expect it, they don't understand what's going on in her mind. As readers we share a little more of that experience, but Donaldson's been pretty coy with us as well.

The only real danger I can see is that she's getting awfully close to the sort of bargain of displaced responsibility that failed Covenant with Elena. There's plenty of possible consequences about this that will come back and and haunt Linden.


I don't believe LA has done anything yet that they didn't expect.
At most she was only prevented from doing certain things too soon, but the actions and consequences are predictable. The Demondim "attack" on Revelstone was a sham designed to provoke LA into exerting some of her power. "TC" led her away from Andelaine at first because her ability with magic hadn't grown enough yet, but it was always his intention to manipulate her into returning to the very place where she would be tempted to use the most power in the most unwise fashion possible. Under Melenkurion Skyweir "TC" waited for Linden to come out from under the falls rather than heading straight for the Earthblood to drink of it himself. He pretended to be overwhelmed by her clumsy thrust toward the Earthblood; then, when LA first attacked the newly revealed Roger, she lost strength because of the counterattack, but Roger waited for her to recover, biding his time by answering her questions with half-truths instead of attacking again right away. The croyel stabbed the back of her hand, impaling it to the Staff, signifying LA's attachment to power and also guaranteeing that she would not be parted with it at this crucial juncture. By the time LA arrived in Andelaine she was capable of wielding both types of power, Law and Wild Magic combined, whereas beforehand the attempt would have destroyed her.

The end is inevitable, and if LA does do anything they don't expect, it won't be until the final chapters of the last book of the third Chrons.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with those who think that Covenant is speaking out of concern for Linden herself. Choices in the Land are troublesome things--some go wrong and a person must suffer the consequences, and sometimes choices that seem wrong to observers turn out to be right and vice-versa.

My personal pet theory is that, without being aware of it, she was facing a version of Neo's Dilemma (from the Matrix, where either he or Morpheus would survive, based on his choice, but not both). See, I'm wondering if Linden's gunshot wound was *actually* unavoidably fatal or if she just assumed it was. What if there was some way forward that she might have lived, but by bringing Covenant back she has erased those paths forward and sealed her fate? The theory would be consistent with everyone seeming to feel that the moment was such a critical crossroads, and the need for the silence of the Dead...and possibly Covenant's reaction as well.

Just my random idle speculation.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CT wrote:
Ur Dead wrote:

Linden rises from the ground. She sees Thomas on his knees, a look of formication press upon him. Slowly walking as a paradox of white gold, she remembers him during their trial under Mt. Thunder. The Cavewrights passed and their nemesis confronting them. She remembers and raises high the Staff of Law. Her darkness explodes and she doesn't forgive. Forcefully beating Thomas around the head and shoulders she screams: "We had a date and you jilted me!! I had to stay behind and clean up that mess!! I had to fix the Sunbane! I had to fuse those two goons together. And I was the one who had to heal the Giants! And what did you do!! You just took off that ring and get fried! And now with all that I have gone through, you have to blame me!! Striking Thomas further, she occasionally says "Melenkurion Abatha!"
The Harrow and Elohim shake their heads, along with Linden companions they slowly drift into the hills.


Seriously, if my wife had wild magic, a krill and a jacked-up Staff of Law, I'd hop to it if she asked me to take out the trash.
Ha ha and I wouldn't be surprised if Linden does react that way, not in so much dialogue, but sure she is getting a little tired of critizism- and aren't you supposed to say, "I missed you honey" first, and then factor in a little light critisizm? Anyway, I agree that whatever is going on is going to be a surprise.

No has mentioned waking up the worm. Isn't it possible, that TC is referring to her using so much power that maybe he thought she could have resurrected him with just a tad less? Like maybe the ring and krill, or the staff and the krill? Dunno do I?

Another thing is the possiblitly that all that bull that RC was running on LA about how difficult it is to be in two places at one time was actually foreshadowing TC's real situation. Roger always lies but some of what he said turned out to be true. If the real TC is now in two places at once, then he can't assume the ring again, she has to keep that, and he has a whole host of problems from being in two places at once.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I won't read the first chapter, although it is posted so it might have revealed the answers already and I will be just speaking to be heard...

I think that foul and TC are interlinked. Just like he could speak through others, so could LF, but neither were back to their former self. Now that TC is resurrected, so is LF. Just what LF wanted.

Or, having read all of SRD sci-fi/fantasy book, he could be pulling a Spoiler:
mad king/but not really mad king
from The Mirror of Her Dreams series of books.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DavidDel wrote:
Now that TC is resurrected, so is LF. Just what LF wanted.

That's what I have been thinking for a while. (And I haven't read the first chapter of AATE either.) But I don't think it's all bad: mortal Arch of Time, but maybe mortal Foul too.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
DavidDel wrote:
Now that TC is resurrected, so is LF. Just what LF wanted.

That's what I have been thinking for a while. (And I haven't read the first chapter of AATE either.) But I don't think it's all bad: mortal Arch of Time, but maybe mortal Foul too.


Ummm, nah.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Ummm, nah.

A hard argument to counter. Yet this and this.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Ummm, nah.

A hard argument to counter. Yet this and this.


I see where you're coming from now. But resurrection? I can't get from "here" to "there" using the links you provided. Foul is not dead, he can't be resurrected.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
I see where you're coming from now. But resurrection? I can't get from "here" to "there" using the links you provided. Foul is not dead, he can't be resurrected.

Well, I was hoping you'd at least see what I meant, even if you didn't agree.

One idea that's been independently put forward many times is that resurrecting TC could be problematic for the Arch of Time. Covenant, after he died, had become "one with" the Arch. Making him mortal again could harm the Arch in many ways. Maybe now it's deprived of a protector. Maybe now the Arch is vulnerable because a key piece has become mortal and therefore fallible, finite, and destructable. Maybe it puts the Arch at the mercy of Foul or Joan or the Ravers.

Well, if that is true ....

Suppose Foul now existed as part of Covenant. Covenant consumed Foul, and the Second and Final Chronicles are replete with beings consuming other beings, and so we know that's important.

Therefore, either Covenant is Foul, in some way, or Foul lives like a virus within Covenant. They are certainly linked now in some way. (I think the Guardians of the One Tree are the best examples here. Each Guardian is also somehow all previous Guardians at the same time.)

No matter how you slice it, making Covenant mortal has got to affect Foul. If it was bad for the Arch, it's just as bad for Foul. Perhaps now Foul is fallible, finite, and/or destructible. Perhaps he's now at the mercy of Joan or the Elohim or Ravers.

Covenant transcended his mortal life, became something larger than he could ever be tethered to being alive. Surely someone like Covenant could only have the capacity to consume someone like Foul as an immortal. If he is remortalized, what happens to Foul? Is Foul also made smaller? Or does Foul somehow pop out and escape again?

Whatever the answer is, the only thing I am sure of is that there's not no connection at all.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
I see where you're coming from now. But resurrection? I can't get from "here" to "there" using the links you provided. Foul is not dead, he can't be resurrected.

Well, I was hoping you'd at least see what I meant, even if you didn't agree.

One idea that's been independently put forward many times is that resurrecting TC could be problematic for the Arch of Time. Covenant, after he died, had become "one with" the Arch. Making him mortal again could harm the Arch in many ways. Maybe now it's deprived of a protector. Maybe now the Arch is vulnerable because a key piece has become mortal and therefore fallible, finite, and destructable. Maybe it puts the Arch at the mercy of Foul or Joan or the Ravers.

Well, if that is true ....

Suppose Foul now existed as part of Covenant. Covenant consumed Foul, and the Second and Final Chronicles are replete with beings consuming other beings, and so we know that's important.

Therefore, either Covenant is Foul, in some way, or Foul lives like a virus within Covenant. They are certainly linked now in some way. (I think the Guardians of the One Tree are the best examples here. Each Guardian is also somehow all previous Guardians at the same time.)

No matter how you slice it, making Covenant mortal has got to affect Foul. If it was bad for the Arch, it's just as bad for Foul. Perhaps now Foul is fallible, finite, and/or destructible. Perhaps he's now at the mercy of Joan or the Elohim or Ravers.

Covenant transcended his mortal life, became something larger than he could ever be tethered to being alive. Surely someone like Covenant could only have the capacity to consume someone like Foul as an immortal. If he is remortalized, what happens to Foul? Is Foul also made smaller? Or does Foul somehow pop out and escape again?

Whatever the answer is, the only thing I am sure of is that there's not no connection at all.


As far as I know, I'm the one who came up with the resurrection theory on this forum stating the the Arch's guardian has been removed. You restated it in terms that I remember relating here.

Now, I agree there are connections between characters, such as the connection between Longwrath and Joan: the fact that their respective violence is turned gentle again but can quickly revert to violence if not placated, was noted by Linden in FR; and the fact that they are both able to slip mysteriously out of their manacles or restraints. I have no doubt that a similar connection exists between TC and LF, and have discussed it here numerous times.

A connection is something more than a parallel. For example, there is a parallel between Covenant's farmhouse and the Land, a parallel between the bonfire and the Banefire, a parallel between the cult members burning their hands and the people of the Land sacrificing themselves to the Banefire. However, there is no connection between these things.

However, any ideas concerning a TC/Foul resurrection connection must surely be considered at this point speculative. All I can say for sure is that Foul cannot be resurrected because he is not dead. It is obvious, however, that relieving the Timewarden of his burden plays right into Foul's hands. With the Timewarden in place, the Arch may have lasted several more centuries, maybe longer, even if the caesures were to continue that long.

There was a silly movie a few years ago about an angel who was made mortal, his purpose being to have his wings removed for some reason. I'm not sure if there's a plot parallel with that movie or not.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah this is tough, but I'm going with TC was never really fully resurrected by Linden.....

"Yet he was alive. In some sense, he was whole; unmarked except by his old wounds."

I thought the earlier post of Anele being maybe a vehicle for TC is interesting since he is the one will save the Land. Anele ripe for possesion by TC saves the Land.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dawngreeter wrote:
Yeah this is tough, but I'm going with TC was never really fully resurrected by Linden.....

"Yet he was alive. In some sense, he was whole; unmarked except by his old wounds."

I thought the earlier post of Anele being maybe a vehicle for TC is interesting since he is the one will save the Land. Anele ripe for possesion by TC saves the Land.


hmmmm....I'm going to say he was fully resurrected, to his "natural" mortality and illness. Those things done to TC by LF and Wild magic are beyond Linden's pay grade.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
Dawngreeter wrote:
Yeah this is tough, but I'm going with TC was never really fully resurrected by Linden.....

"Yet he was alive. In some sense, he was whole; unmarked except by his old wounds."

I thought the earlier post of Anele being maybe a vehicle for TC is interesting since he is the one will save the Land. Anele ripe for possesion by TC saves the Land.


hmmmm....I'm going to say he was fully resurrected, to his "natural" mortality and illness. Those things done to TC by LF and Wild magic are beyond Linden's pay grade.


TC's condition is like that of a remote control that someone took apart and tried to put back together again. It never works quite the same again, some buttons refuse to work or they work intermittently.

(Possible spoiler)

Spoiler:
I think TC's "buttons" work intermittently. He is mentally connected to reality at times, but then his mind fades back into confusion regarding past, present and future.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
DavidDel wrote:
Now that TC is resurrected, so is LF. Just what LF wanted.

That's what I have been thinking for a while. (And I haven't read the first chapter of AATE either.) But I don't think it's all bad: mortal Arch of Time, but maybe mortal Foul too.


If Foul was someone's creation, then yes.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

quote="DavidDel"]Now that TC is resurrected, so is LF. Just what LF wanted.[/quote]

Waited 3 years for AATE, and then my wife tells me that she's getting it for me for Christmas, so I have 2 days to wait!!!

Just finished reading RotE and FR in preparation, and one of my questions was "Who commanded the Dead not to speak to LA?" So naturally, I came here, where the best speculation can be found. And something said in this thread got me to thinking...(I apologize if this has already been discussed.)

When Covenant is speaking through Anele, he says that he can't even mention his name or he'll cut him off. I seem to remember another thread where this was discussed. Now someone mentioned earlier in this thread that at the end of WGW, TC may have absorbed LF or something to that effect. There is also the "Covenant is Foul" comment from the GI that has been talked about.

Not having read AATE, which may render all of this moot, but what if Covenant and Foul are now one? Most of Covenant's efforts would be directed at keeping Foul from taking control. When Foul is "whispering advice here and there" (i.e., controlling his minions), Covenant gets a chance to act, but the rest of the time, he has to protect the Arch. That would help to explain Covenant's question at the end of FR. Either the Arch is unprotected now or Linden has given LF a physical presence, and the only way to get rid of him now would be to get rid of TC.

Probably silly...but I'm going slowly mad waiting to read AATE! The waiting always gets worse the closer it is to ending...
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome, ur-Timewarden!

Answers to questions about the Dead (no spoilers, however) -

They spend 99.9% of their time asleep. When roused out of their eternal sleep to attend to some purpose, they speak only in profound riddles if at all.

Covenant was not commanded not to speak to Linden, but there is/was some kind of supernatural aegis upon him. It concerns the "necessity of freedom" clause. Visitors to the Land are required to sort out their own problems and determine their own fates (or Weird/Wyrd).

Covenant has always been one with Foul, because Foul is his dream doppelganger, the side of him that hates lepers. Covenant declared this truth before the end of WGW, for one reason to get Foul's ire up.

I am looking forward to eventually reading your comments on AATE. Enjoy!

(I had to fix the missing bracket below in order to make my comment post correctly.)

ur-Timewarden wrote:
DavidDel wrote:
Now that TC is resurrected, so is LF. Just what LF wanted.


Waited 3 years for AATE, and then my wife tells me that she's getting it for me for Christmas, so I have 2 days to wait!!!

Just finished reading RotE and FR in preparation, and one of my questions was "Who commanded the Dead not to speak to LA?" So naturally, I came here, where the best speculation can be found. And something said in this thread got me to thinking...(I apologize if this has already been discussed.)

When Covenant is speaking through Anele, he says that he can't even mention his name or he'll cut him off. I seem to remember another thread where this was discussed. Now someone mentioned earlier in this thread that at the end of WGW, TC may have absorbed LF or something to that effect. There is also the "Covenant is Foul" comment from the GI that has been talked about.

Not having read AATE, which may render all of this moot, but what if Covenant and Foul are now one? Most of Covenant's efforts would be directed at keeping Foul from taking control. When Foul is "whispering advice here and there" (i.e., controlling his minions), Covenant gets a chance to act, but the rest of the time, he has to protect the Arch. That would help to explain Covenant's question at the end of FR. Either the Arch is unprotected now or Linden has given LF a physical presence, and the only way to get rid of him now would be to get rid of TC.

Probably silly...but I'm going slowly mad waiting to read AATE! The waiting always gets worse the closer it is to ending...

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! I guess that I lurk more than I log on, so my account was deactivated. Had to create a new one...

In roughly 14 hours, I will crack open a brand-spankin' new copy of AATE! I hope that I don't get my hopes up to high like I did at the end of Merlin's portion of the Amber series. When you have 3 years to speculate, you can be disappointed. Hoping that's not the case here...
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Timewarden wrote:
Thanks! I guess that I lurk more than I log on, so my account was deactivated. Had to create a new one...

In roughly 14 hours, I will crack open a brand-spankin' new copy of AATE! I hope that I don't get my hopes up to high like I did at the end of Merlin's portion of the Amber series. When you have 3 years to speculate, you can be disappointed. Hoping that's not the case here...


The one time I actually recognize and then welcome a new user, it turns out not to be. Oh well, welcome and be a stranger and lurker to the Watch no more!
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