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Free Will and God's Will....
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Immanentizing The Eschaton


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing Even inflammatory is alright to an extent Kalkin. A few disclaimers, and making sure it's not personal, and you don't have to worry too much. We're pretty easy going.

I guess so Damelon, although they think it's natural, IIRC, not down to a god. A few other religions like the idea too. Although it's a nice one, I don't believe it any more than I believe in any other religious explanation really. I'm more of a "you live, then you die, and that's it" kinda person. It's just the principle I was illustrating.

If there really is a plan, it's rigged. Wink

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
If there really is a plan, it's rigged. Wink

--A

LOL
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
False Choice


You seem to be arguing that when you are unable to do something you want to, you are being deprived of your free will. I don't believe this is the case.

What if I wanted to fly under my own power? I can't do it, it's impossible. Have I lost my free will? No I haven't, because it's the wanting part which is important.

Free will means that you get to want (or try to do) whatever you like, not that you get to do whatever you like, otherwise everyone would be able to do everything.

In your example of a choice between you or your brother being killed, you are free to work towards any outcome you like. The man with the gun is setting the rules, though, and you're at a disadvantage. Doesn't make you any less free to try to escape, you'll just have to take whatever consequences occur as a result of the rules of the situation.

The same holds true for any example you could give. You're always able to want or try absolutely anything. It's achieving your goals where the difficulty lies. Whether you succeed or fail at whatever you try, your free will has already been exercised.
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nathan?!? Laughing Welcome back.

And good post.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nathan wrote:


In your example of a choice between you or your brother being killed, you are free to work towards any outcome you like. The man with the gun is setting the rules, though, and you're at a disadvantage. Doesn't make you any less free to try to escape, you'll just have to take whatever consequences occur as a result of the rules of the situation.

The same holds true for any example you could give. You're always able to want or try absolutely anything. It's achieving your goals where the difficulty lies. Whether you succeed or fail at whatever you try, your free will has already been exercised.


But there in lies the problem, for me. Free Will, or even just will, is more synomous to liberty for me then it is with agency. The fact that your will is that you and your brother live would show in this example that your will is being overcome by the man with the gun. Fine, you can still choose, but you can not enact your will, that ability has been taken from you.
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Nate. It's not the succeeding that matters. It's the trying. Pretty sure SRD said somthing very similar.

If it was only success that proved free will, then losing a game would be having your freedom to win taken from you.

In this scenario, you are free to try and escape, or turn the tables on your attacker, or do nothing. He is free to try and stop you.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I could write some long post, but I'd rather say it with a picture.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orlion wrote:
fact that your will is that you and your brother live would show in this example that your will is being overcome by the man with the gun.


If you define free will as "Being able to acheive everything you try" then nobody has free will. There is nobody who has ever existed who has been able to succeed at everything he attempted.

That must mean either that free will doesn't exist, or that you'll have to tone down your definition of free will to a more realistic one.
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
I agree with Nate. It's not the succeeding that matters. It's the trying. Pretty sure SRD said somthing very similar.

If it was only success that proved free will, then losing a game would be having your freedom to win taken from you.

In this scenario, you are free to try and escape, or turn the tables on your attacker, or do nothing. He is free to try and stop you.

--A


I am going to take that a step further and say it's not only the trying, but the will---or desire-- to try in the first place.
I have to agree with Orlion in that action/ability is a seperate entity from will.

"Free will," after what I have read, seems to me to encompass too many variables to allow a definition to be written concretely, or to determine with any semblance of certainty that it truly exists at all.
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm. Well, we are certainly free to want anything we like... Very Happy

(Good to see you around.)

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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely true, Av. Which is why "free will" can neither solely be defined by desire, nor can desire be taken out of the definition.
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