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Pantheon: The Third Age - Rules and Comments Thread
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Fist and Faith
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anybody can ask Zephyr if they want to know his motivations for anything. If any characters are not into IC discussions, that's too bad. Discussing it here is not roleplaying.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck communicating with Bel in character right now.

Besdies, I'm just genuinely interested, and don't expect any in-game gain from asking. I want to know if I went wrong somewhere in my own roleplay and gave some justification for attack before I intended to.


Edit: Though I guess I'm not entirely clear on my situation right now as far as future turns go. I could use a bit of further explanation from Xar.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, what is up with Bel! I hadn't read that part of Events until just now. Maybe Simjen knows.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I just commited myself to a choice for my next Pantheon deity. A new idea I hadn't thought of before, not completely new, but interesting enough. Not sure if I should share it or not because I don't know if people will go back to all the anonymity discussion again before P4.


And Goatkiller, I make it a point not to act on out of game information. If I can't justify why my character would do something, I don't.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no possibility of anonymity. I just won't ever discuss anything OOC. Even if I talk on the phone with someone, anything said to me will be usable IC, and I don't care what anybody thinks of that. Anything posted in Comments that you think is off limits is NOT off limits. Of course, it goes both ways. Feel free to use anything I say anywhere.

Not sure which domain I'll go for, though. I have a few strong candidates.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my character's perspective, Bel was looking for the 'peace' of the grave for all Eiran's mortals. Hard to indulge in one's desires from there. That made you public enemy #2 (after Mox.) So is it surprising that the god fated to lead the Pantheon to save Eiran would see Bel as a problem to address?

[My speculation - you can PM Fist directly since Bel probably can't ask - not that he was very talkative anyway! Wink ]
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the idea that any of the players thinks that way, Fist. Observing and commenting on the game outside of it is one of the things I find most entertaining, and someone using that to further their position in game stifles it.

You answered my inquiry before by saying that discussing it here is not roleplaying. But if you were actually concerned with roleplaying at all, you'd never act on information your character could not possibly possess.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But it's impossible to not know what someone reveals OOC. If you plan to send your prophet to X or Y, and can't decide which, but somebody says OOC that they're going to be screwing with X, you can't possibly not take that into account when you decide where to send your prophet. Not all instances of OOC chatter are clear cut like that. Much is hinted. But ignoring it is not possible. Caam asked what I learned from the Sapphire of Jove when I studied it back when Vash and Yek were partners. I told her I couldn't tell her OOC, because she could hardly be expected to ignore it when deciding how Vashitva would react to Zephyr's actions. So I didn't tell her. And if I had, I wouldn't expect her to not plan around it.


And, seriously, didn't Murrin and Bel both hint enough that the end of all was the only means of achieving Peace? Do I have to go find all the quotes?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murrin wrote:
And Goatkiller, I make it a point not to act on out of game information. If I can't justify why my character would do something, I don't.


Murrin. That's good to know, though... I'm sure you've told me before, months and months ago. Clearly I forgot. I did remember that at least Fist, and probably others, feel the way he's described here. So, I didn't want to just throw stuff out there without checking... and I was too lazy to go dig through the archives to find out which side of the fence you fell on.

So... as a side note... from the point of view of someone who came into the Pantheon games late... SOOOO very much of what's really going on in these games was done behind the scenes. I know it would be a lot of work, but it would be super-awesome if, once P3 is done, we could all do a brain-dump of all that behind the scenes stuff. It wouldn't impact the game, but it would be a damned interesting read.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
But it's impossible to not know what someone reveals OOC. If you plan to send your prophet to X or Y, and can't decide which, but somebody says OOC that they're going to be screwing with X, you can't possibly not take that into account when you decide where to send your prophet. Not all instances of OOC chatter are clear cut like that. Much is hinted. But ignoring it is not possible. Caam asked what I learned from the Sapphire of Jove when I studied it back when Vash and Yek were partners. I told her I couldn't tell her OOC, because she could hardly be expected to ignore it when deciding how Vashitva would react to Zephyr's actions. So I didn't tell her. And if I had, I wouldn't expect her to not plan around it.

The option exists to have some self control and go willingly (as a player) into the situation that would be less advantageous because it makes more sense that your character would do that.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Incidentally, I forgot to update the stats yesterday - I've done that now.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! And some pretty interesting updates they are!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murrin wrote:
The option exists to have some self control and go willingly (as a player) into the situation that would be less advantageous because it makes more sense that your character would do that.


But then is one doing it because it makes sense? Or simply because having the information now precludes that path of action, even if it had been a viable possibility before?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't quite get your meaning. I was saying do the thing that makes more sense for your character regardless of whether or not you know there is something else happening that would interfere with it. I.e., if you were planning to convert the creatively named Town A, and then hear out of character that God B is going to destroy it, the correct response is to... try to convert Town A, because your character doesn't have that knowledge and thus would not have any reason to change his mind. The wrong response is to deliberately change your plans and convert Town B.


Think of roleplaying like character-driven storytelling. If an author has a character act in a way that doesn't fit who they are and what they know just to, for example, get out of a situation the author has written them into and can't work a way out of, then they'll lose the faith of the reader, because the character's actions won't make sense.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think he's saying that, if there were two equal options to choose from, your attitude seems to be that I must now make the one that I know, ooc, to be worse for me. Your last post is not talking about that kind of scenario, but it could certainly come up.

Problem solved all around if people don't say OOC what they will not say IC. Which is fine for you anyway. What do you care? You don't share any information in or out of character. Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm more open about my character's personality out of charcter and you know that. None of my actions in game justify a strike against me, and though some of my character's words might clue other characters in to his thoughts I don't think he'd gone fully down that road (openly) yet.


As far as I remember it, my actions so far in game regarding other players:

- Almost fully successful attempt to destroy Devaguhya performed in concert with a number of other deities, my part of which consisted of peaceful conversion of followers through use of an Aspect.
- War with Rothmog which began when his followers started killing mine, after my own had gone into his lands to eradicate (mostly) corrupted wildlife. It was only natural that once aggression began Bel would choose to see Rothmog and all of his people as part of the corruption, considering their nature.
- Aiding O-gon-cho in protecting her main settlement from uKulwa's attacks (by causing those within the area to be unable to attack one another).
- Attempts to turn uKulwa's forces against themselves, briefly through an abortive subterfuge attempt but mainly through direct manipulation of his warriors in self defence when they invaded the Reclaimed Lands.
- Panicked and mostly unsuccessful self defence against attacks from Argothoth's armies in legion with Rothmog before Argothoth took full control of them.

Note that almost all of my action for a large portion of the game has been involved in self-defence against aggressive deities within the borders of Noptae. I've done nothing to provoke attack from others outside, and if I were viewing my actions from outside I'd go so far as to say that Bel is a hugely ineffectual deity as he has accomplished barely any of his goals, and lost any ground he gained shortly after.


Edit: I just have to add here that I really mean it when I say to Simjen "well played". For once in this instance of the game, someone did not attack me pre-emptively for things they feared I might do, but instead put something out there and waited for other players to act against it, likely suspecting that I would be one who did. Bel totally deserved his fate for attacking Simjen's false Arc, and I tip my hat to Syl.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murrin wrote:
I'm more open about my character's personality out of charcter and you know that. None of my actions in game justify a strike against me, and though some of my character's words might clue other characters in to his thoughts I don't think he'd gone fully down that road (openly) yet.


As far as I remember it, my actions so far in game regarding other players:

- Almost fully successful attempt to destroy Devaguhya performed in concert with a number of other deities, my part of which consisted of peaceful conversion of followers through use of an Aspect.
- War with Rothmog which began when his followers started killing mine, after my own had gone into his lands to eradicate (mostly) corrupted wildlife. It was only natural that once aggression began Bel would choose to see Rothmog and all of his people as part of the corruption, considering their nature.
- Aiding O-gon-cho in protecting her main settlement from uKulwa's attacks (by causing those within the area to be unable to attack one another).
- Attempts to turn uKulwa's forces against themselves, briefly through an abortive subterfuge attempt but mainly through direct manipulation of his warriors in self defence when they invaded the Reclaimed Lands.
- Panicked and mostly unsuccessful self defence against attacks from Argothoth's armies in legion with Rothmog before Argothoth took full control of them.

Note that almost all of my action for a large portion of the game has been involved in self-defence against aggressive deities within the borders of Noptae. I've done nothing to provoke attack from others outside, and if I were viewing my actions from outside I'd go so far as to say that Bel is a hugely ineffectual deity as he has accomplished barely any of his goals, and lost any ground he gained shortly after.


Edit: I just have to add here that I really mean it when I say to Simjen "well played". For once in this instance of the game, someone did not attack me pre-emptively for things they feared I might do, but instead put something out there and waited for other players to act against it, likely suspecting that I would be one who did. Bel totally deserved his fate for attacking Simjen's false Arc, and I tip my hat to Syl.


While whatever reasons the Numen and Argothoth had to attack Bel are their own to clarify, my two cents are that it was my impression from reading Bel's last in-game comments that he was planning something big, and he dropped several hints that his "cleansing the world of corruption" might entail scouring it of intelligent life, or another similar apocalypse. I could imagine that with the other gods in a panic due to the encroaching influence of the World Breaker, some might have decided to stop Bel before he had a chance to bring on yet another catastrophe on Eiran - there have been instances in the past of gods trying to do so and almost succeeding because no one stopped them beforehand (such as Tawhiri-Matea). That's just the way I see it, obviously, and their reasons may have been entirely different; I also have the impression that their attack had nothing to do with Simjen's decoy or with knowing what Bel would do; in other words, I have the feeling they didn't attack Bel's people for the express purpose of weakening him so the decoy could trap him. If I were to guess, I would imagine they attacked in hopes of weakening Bel so that he would no longer be a potential threat, leaving the gods free to focus on the other dangers. But again, I could be wrong.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have a problem with whatever a diety does. But, for someone insisting that in-game events must be logical and in-character ....

Murrin wrote:

- Almost fully successful attempt to destroy Devaguhya performed in concert with a number of other deities, my part of which consisted of peaceful conversion of followers through use of an Aspect.


And attacking the god of Life was consistent with Peace in what way?! Razz

Hmmmmm ....
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you forgotten how you got your character condemned by refusing to see reason?

Xar, I did not think that Syl and the others were working togther on the attack. That's why I clearly seperated the attack from Syl's trap in my response in terms of intent and execution...
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xar's interpretation is pretty spot-on, actually. Bel has stated that he seeks oblivion for all, there were some vague hints that this would be extended to everyone in the world, but that he'd first help us all get past this whole other mess we got going. But, it was decided that, while we had a spare turn when the rest went into the mists, it might be good to weaken Bel a bit, so he wouldn't be able to endanger us. And really, given Mox' inability to choose one side, there was a real danger that Bel planned something BEFORE we'd finished with our current mess. All it would take is a trusted ally turning on us at a key moment to doom us all. So, taking Bel out now seemed like the safer alternative.

I had no idea that the Arc was a decoy, so also applaud Simjen on that move. It's certainly going to help me out next turn, that's for sure. And, it proves that our theory was right... Bel WAS going to try something before we fixed the other problems.
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