An enduring solution?

earthbrah · Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:41 pm Post subject:

I think first we should separate 'enduring' from 'permanent'. They are not the same thing, and I bet SRD knew this when he envisioned the end of the Last Chronicles and the answer to this question.

I don't really know the answer, but will venture one anyway. I think it has to do with integration. Foul was always an external entity, a being of eternity with a separate existence. He was unalloyed hate, yet now having merged with Covenant, he is no longer that unalloyed hate. He was accepted by his arch enemy who openly chose to suffer his existence. He may not even be a being of eternity anymore, may have had that quality reduced or stripped as part of the merging. I mean, what are the implications for him now that he is an integral part of a mortal being? That's a separate discussion, perhaps.

I also don't think that the answer is as simple as Foul being imprisoned in a different way. Though that is true, this imprisonment is different. I suppose I want to believe that Covenant's forgiveness of Foul through his acceptance of him will in time alter the nature of the Despiser and thus of despite. But at the very least it stands as an example of what it means to forgive and accept Despite instead of forever fighting it.

Fighting it only makes it stronger in the long run, and now no one but Covenant can carry on that fight. And if he does or needs to, it is ALL internal instead of external. Foul can only hurt others if Covenant allows it, or if Foul takes over control of his jailor, somehow.

All of that may not be a real answer, but perhaps it gets us off and running with the discussion through which we may discover the intended answer together...
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iQuestor · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:48 am Post subject:

I dont buy it. TC didnt absorb Foul. He said later that he still had foul inside him, which means he is an individual, one capable of possession. He can still fight. All he has to do is take possession then he can start over. To me it isnt even more enduring that WGW's solution.
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dlbpharmd · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:18 pm Post subject:

earthbrah · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:42 pm Post subject:

It's almost like Foul has been trapped inside a Durance. As if TC as the white gold now serves as a mortal interdict against Despite in the Land.

I think part of the point of each answer/response to Despite is that it can never be completely done away with. There is no permanent solution, except acceptance, forgiveness and learning to live with it.
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"Verily, wisdom is like hunger. Perhaps it is a very fine thing--but who would willingly partake of it."
--Saltheart Foamfollower

"Latency--what is concealed--is the demonstrable presence of the future."
--Jean Gebser

dlbpharmd · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:48 pm Post subject:

amonereb · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:10 pm Post subject:

I think it's enduring for SRD. The exit stage right in the epilogue felt like a definite goodbye, and the answer to the giants request for answers was like saying, I don't have all the answers, but now we are going anyway, the end.

I buy the LF/TC conundrum, one can't live without the other... Although it suggests TC is equal to the creator...
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Sheoll · Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: An enduring solution?

bluefoxicy · Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:08 am Post subject:

earthbrah · Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:20 am Post subject:

bluefoxicy wrote:

TheFallen · Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:33 am Post subject:

I'm Murrin · Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:32 am Post subject:

The important thing about the ending is that there's no longer a story to tell. Yes, moksha was released, and yes, Foul lives on within Covenant. But the important part is that Covenant, Linden, and Jeremiah are over their doubts. They have power, they are confident in it, they will use it to keep the world whole. They've overcome the internal conflicts that kept them from becoming what they are at the end. And those internal conflicts are what drives Donaldson's stories. Without them, the story is over.
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dlbpharmd · Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:35 pm Post subject:

native · Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:42 pm Post subject:

I thought it was meant to be a symbolic solution rather than a narrative one. It certainly had no relevance to the narrative, although SRD did bump up the Covenant death toll in the run up as a kind of sign post.

If he's made more of the knowledge he needed to save the arch being gained from Foul it might have worked better. A section where Covenant goes back to the arch and tried to support it withhis ring but fails, instead of all that endless splashing about towards the end.

As it is, he probably waited till Jeremiah was ready to build a Foul prison and then let him out.

TWDuke77 · Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:44 am Post subject:

I think that the key point to the whole argument of the enduring solution is that these are the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. The enduring solution is his: namely that he has finally found the best answer to his despite, acceptance that it is, and always will be, a part of him. Job done, in my opinion.

Now, if this were the Chronicles of the Land, then it's likely that there never could be an enduring solution. All we have witnessed is effectively the dawn of a new Age, a la LOTR. Of course Despite still exists (a renegade Raver, probable Sandgorgons etc) - as already mentioned, SRD has outlined his belief that Despite cannot be eradicated. Without despite, there cannot be good things also.

But that is now Somebody Else's Problem. If the story were to continue, it would no longer be Covenant's. His has come to an end. And I, for one, am happy that the solution, for him, is enduring.
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dlbpharmd · Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:17 pm Post subject:

lurch · Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:17 am Post subject:

I think the metaphor is answer to you question d...The " enduring" is in the ..Unity..The 3 are Unified,,,Whole...singular in intent and direction. Rather than conflicted , torn apart by the opposites,,they have risen above all the fragmenting contradictions. ..They have used the diametrically opposing contradictions..to find a 3rd choice,,a 3rd reality...A reality that embraces the Unknown. There is a dimension of Love being expressed there and that is the most enduring element of anyones Humanity.
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Zarathustra · Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:25 pm Post subject:

I'm not sure how the characters resolved their opposites. Jeremiah played a trick on a raver, and got all its knowledge. Covenant hugged Foul. Linden threw women into urviles. Not everything can be symbolic. How did the characters resolve their issues in the story? How did they work these issues out for themselves? None of that was shown. Too much had to be kept secret so that the end wouldn't lose its shock value.

Foul was always part of Covenant. This has been true from the beginning. Covenant has known and accepted it from (nearly) the beginning. He has been telling everyone that Foul is just a part of him. So what exactly was left for him to do, if he got the point of his own character arc many books ago?

And don't forget that Donaldson has conflated the "problem of evil" with the problem of entropy: the fact that everything dies. He hasn't given a solution to that (or to Wildwood's question) ... at least not a human solution. He's just invented a magical solution specific only to his particular created world, one with no value to anyone who can't also magically repair the universe.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche

I'm Murrin · Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:32 pm Post subject:

Linden didn't confront her weakness by removing the souls from the bane. She did it by learning to shield herself from the despair the bane tried to draw out in her.

Jeremiah was confronted with a possession he could protect himself from by withdrawing again, and instead overcame it.

Covenant... didn't really do much, because he already got over himself twice already.
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Zarathustra · Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:41 pm Post subject:

How did Linden learn to shield herself from despair?

Possession isn't a real thing. Has no relevance to me as a reader. Hiding inside yourself can be useful?

As you say, Covenant learned this particular lesson at least 5 books ago.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche