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Race in America
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:
He remarked that he had jokingly said that to a lawyer friend who said "You think its funny but there is legal precedent being set here." Rolling Eyes


His lawyer friend is right. If we are able to redefine our personal demographics based the "fact" that we feel like we are a member of group x then all kinds of doors open up. If I feel black then does that mean I can qualify for loan programs which are designed specifically to assist black families? If our daughter feels Cherokee--because her great-grandmother was full Cherokee--then can she take advantage of the college scholarship programs available to Native Americans? (the very phrase "native American" is stupid, itself--everyone born here is a native American but try telling that to the Census)

Now....if Ms. Dolezal has been representing herself as black for years has she been filling out official documents and checking the demographic boxes (which are often optional rather than mandatory) as "black"? Does that qualify as "tampering with government documents" or "falsifying information" or perhaps even "perjury"?

I saw one person's complaint about her in a news story summed up as "she hasn't been through 'the struggle' because she isn't black". I don't know her full background but what if her parents were poor? What if she grew up in an inner-city environment or even in a poor rural environment? That isn't a struggle even if you aren't black?

In one sense, it is good that this news story has happened because it will finally help shed light on the central question here: what exactly is "race"? The only differences between a black person and me are 1) a difference in melanin quantity in our outermost epidermal layer, 2) differences in nose structure, and 3) differences in hair quality. That's it--3 things, all of which are superficial and meaningless.

The KKK, and people of similar ilk, used to have this idea which we can summarize as "the 1 drop rule"--if you had even 1 drop of black blood in you they considered you black and thus you could be targeted for their abuse. It is both ironic and curious that this principle is being used in reverse--some people are able to claim that because they have 1 drop of black blood in them that they are black--and this is bringing previously-unexpressed racism to the surface. In other words, you can't be black unless you are black enough. This qualifies as textbook racism--judging people based solely on skin color.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You all should know what race is - whatever you feel like it is.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:


...has she been filling out official documents and checking the demographic boxes (which are often optional rather than mandatory) as "black"? Does that qualify as "tampering with government documents" or "falsifying information" or perhaps even "perjury"?


I knew a guy in the UK who always ticked "African" on the basis the mankind originated here. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so when will male college athletes declare themselves female and demand scholarships based on this?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scholarships? Most of them would probably be satisfied with access to the ladies' locker room.

*************

A lone white gunman, now identified as 21-year-old Dylann Roof, entered the Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, SC and killed 9 people. The pastor and a State senator were among the dead. Apparently the shooter entered the church, stayed there for about an hour, then stood up and started shooting. He is, at the time of this post, still at large. My suspicion is that he will take the coward's way out and commit suicide rather than be caught and put on trial. He could be holed up in a room somewhere watching the coverage about himself, in which case he is taking the sociopath route and it is only a matter of time before he taunts police with a letter or phone call.

This certainly qualifies as a race-related crime, given that recent photos of the shooter depict him wearing a jacket bearing flags from African countries during their time being ruled by white minorities. The feelings and fires which had died down a little after Ferguson and Baltimore just got a new round of gasoline poured on them.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My home state. I've driven by that Church countless times.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
The feelings and fires which had died down a little after Ferguson and Baltimore just got a new round of gasoline poured on them.
I haven't noticed much of a 'dying down' of feelings. We're seeing a nationwide escalation of racial tension and violence. It's deeply troubling. I wish our leaders would, you know, lead, instead of trying to capitalize on the division.

There have also been two more pool related incidents. At one in Georgia, a black youth was shot dead and others wounded as people got out of control there. (I bet they wished they'd had the over-zealous cop at that pool party.) And then an entire black family attacked cops who were trying to remove a woman who wasn't obeying the pool's rules.

So defying the rules/laws and then physically attacking cops is becoming so mainstream and acceptable, people are doing it with their kids!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
I haven't noticed much of a 'dying down' of feelings. We're seeing a nationwide escalation of racial tension and violence.


I meant from a front-page, lead-the-nightly-news point of view.

It appears that [url=atlanta.cbslocal.com/2015/06/18/gunman-kills-9-at-historically-black-church-during-bible-study/]Mr. Roof has been caught[/url]. Now the circus begins again--wild stories about what he might have said in the church, what medications he might have been taking, every social media post he ever made, renewed arguments about needing sweeping gun control legislation, and so on and so forth. I see also that Mr. Obama has wasted no time chiming in on this event even though he didn't have a word to say about Baltimore.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My first intinct was that this kid is nuts. Then I thought about it, why was that my first instinct when with Nadal Hassan my first instinct was he was a radicalized Muslim.

Something to ponder.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SerScot wrote:
My first intinct was that this kid is nuts. Then I thought about it, why was that my first instinct when with Nadal Hassan my first instinct was he was a radicalized Muslim.

Something to ponder.


Those are the general profiles we see when stories like these emerge; in these cases the general profiles are true more often than not. In most cases, lone gunmen who are white turn out to be younger men with a history of being "quiet" or "loners", who are typically taking psycho-pharmaceuticals, and who have developed an unhealthy fascination with guns and/or violence. Meanwhile, in most cases gunmen who have "Middle Eastern" names--caveat: most Americans cannot tell the difference between average names from Egypt and average names from Pakistan--have indeed been radicalized in some manner and have decided to act on it.

The two guys who shot at the "draw Mohammed" event in Garland were, indeed, radicalized while the guy who tried to take out the Dallas Police Department was older (not as old as me, but not in his early 20s, either) but had a history of family violence and, interestingly, one or two armored vehicles (imagine buying a decommissioned Wells Fargo transport van--it retains its armor plating).

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

16 dead in Baltimore this month. All black victims. Funny that there's no media circus about that.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Black-on-black crime isn't news and doesn't allow for pursuing an agendum. White-on-black crime, specifically a mass shooting in a church, is both.

edit to add: Gov. Haley wants [url=america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/6/19/south-carolina-govenor-wants-death-penalty-for-church-shooting-suspect.html]Mr. Roof to face the death penalty[/url]. This isn't surprising.

I also see that some are trying to renew calls for restrictions on guns but access to guns is not the problem. Churches require security like any other place. After a couple of church shootings several years ago, including one particularly bad one in Waco, many churches in Texas started quietly tapping their members who were police and/or military (whether currently active or veterans/retired) to bring weapons to church and position themselves near the doors. I know this for a fact because a friend of ours at the church in Lewisville had "assigned seating" (not really but that is how I term it) near the front entrance.

If this guy knew that someone in the church had a gun it is likely that he wouldn't have committed this act. Sure, he probably would have acted out in some other way but it probably wouldn't have resulted in 9 deaths. Banning guns creates soft targets.

Oh...and to the woman who interrupted a news report to shout "white people are terrorists"...well, I have news for you: that statement is classic, textbook racism--judging an entire group of people based solely on skin color. Were you thinking of voting for Hillary? Is she a terrorist? Is Joe Biden a terrorist? Did you vote for him (if you voted for Obama you voted for Biden)? Does that mean you voted for a terrorist? If so, why? Do you have any white friends? If so, then why are you their friend if they are terrorists?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
I also see that some are trying to renew calls for restrictions on guns but access to guns is not the problem.
'Some?' You mean like the most powerful man in our country, President Obama? He's the one leading the wave of capitalizing on this politically by pushing liberal agendas on divisive issues, rather than trying to calm people down and bring us together.

You're right, stricter gun laws wouldn't have made any difference. All the laws they wanted to pass after Newtown wouldn't have stopped this shooting. Most of the murders in the news (i.e. the ones committed by whites) are done with legal guns, even after going through background checks (e.g. in the case of the Aurora shooter).

The guns that are killing most of the black people in America are guns acquired through ways that already violate current law. Stolen, black market, etc. Gang members don't typically go through background checks in order to get a gun, I wouldn't expect. As such, using a shooting on a black church as an opportunity to push an agenda that won't stop most blacks from being shot, is both cynical opportunism as well as counterproductive to the ostensible goal.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This particular story has now impacted [url=america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/6/22/leader-of-group-quoted-in-charleston-manifesto-donated-to-gop-candidates.html]national politics in a direct way: Mr. Roof appears to have been influenced by a group called the Council of Conservative Citizens whose president, Earl Holt III, donated to various GOP candidates such as Cruz, Paul, and Santorum[/url]. Cruz's campaign has already returned the money; I am certain the others will follow suit relatively quickly.

What is it with white supremacists living in proximity to me, anyway? This Holt guy is apparently from Longview, my former home town (my father still lives there, as do a few other relatives but I never visit them any more--long story). As a child I grew up in Morehouse Parish in Louisiana, which was a local hotbed of KKK activity back in the 1940s to 1960s.

edit: hrm...I thought it was just that one random woman cutting in to a live newscast but I was mistaken. Other people are trying to reclassify the Charleston shooting as "domestic terrorism". Isn't going a little too far? If we start labeling a church shooting as "terrorism" then what other crimes can we start putting under that umbrella definition? The commenter in question is defining terrorism as "politically motivated violence by a non-state actor and carried out with the intention of intimidating more persons than those who were the immediate victims" but this could apply to any shooting as long as the person(s) doing the shooting make any sort of political comment.

Consider that guy who shot a cop in New Orleans. We could call his act "domestic terrorism" because he was a non-state actor carrying out an act designed to intimidate people other than the immediate victim. His political statement? He shot a cop--"Down With the Man!" or " Power to the People!".

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would agree with you that there's a line, but in this case, I would call it domestic terrorism.

Crazy or terrorist, aren't they just one in the same.

Either way, at least this nut was caught. I'm sick of this crap.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, this was domestic terrorism: violence done for political/cultural/religious reasons, meant to send a message of protest or ideological outrage. He clearly was doing that.

But so were all the looters/rioters in Ferguson and Baltimore. And all the recent cop killers. (Well, the ones who aren't merely opportunistic criminals and thieves.)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to mention Major Hassan.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Yes, this was domestic terrorism: violence done for political/cultural/religious reasons, meant to send a message of protest or ideological outrage. He clearly was doing that.

But so were all the looters/rioters in Ferguson and Baltimore. And all the recent cop killers. (Well, the ones who aren't merely opportunistic criminals and thieves.)


Exactly. If we are going to call one of these things "domestic terrorism" then we have to call the other things "domestic terrorism", as well. The problem is this: once we start reclassifying normal crimes as terrorism where does it stop? Would this mean that law enforcement may treat people who might otherwise be merely criminals as terrorists?

Now it appears that South Carolina is poised to remove the Confederate Flag flying at its capitol building. I don't have a problem with this since that flag is not the official State flag of South Carolina. We shouldn't bury the past--it needs to be remembered and studied as a historical fact--but that doesn't mean that signs of the past need to continue flying on government buildings, either.

Finally, Dr. Cornel West never minces his words.


Quote:
CORNEL WEST: You can't talk about wealth and inequality, you can't talk about education, you can't talk about massive unemployment and under employment and you can't talk about drones being dropped on people in other parts of the world without talking about white supremacy and its ways in which it operates. It doesn't have to be overt. The president is right about that.

But too many black people are niggerized. I would say the first black president has become the first niggerized black president.

CNN ANCHOR: What do you mean by that?

WEST: A niggerized black person is a black person who is afraid and scared and intimidated when it comes to putting a spotlight on white supremacy and fighting against white supremacy. So when many of us said we have to fight against racism, what were we told? 'No, he can't deal with racism because he has other issues, political calculations. He's the president of all America, not just black America.' We know he's president of all America but white supremacy is American as cherry pie.

We're talking about moral issues, spiritual issues, emotional issues. White supremacy has nothing to do with just skin pigmentation, it has to be what kind of person you want to be, what kind of nation we want to be. Democrats and Republicans play on both of those parties in terms of running away from the vicious legacy of white supremacy until it hits us hard. Thank God for Ferguson. Thank God for the young folk of all colors. Thank God for Staten Island and fighting there. Thank God in Baltimore, now the precious folk in Charleston.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
CORNEL WEST: You can't talk about wealth and inequality, you can't talk about education, you can't talk about massive unemployment and under employment and you can't talk about drones being dropped on people in other parts of the world without talking about white supremacy and its ways in which it operates. It doesn't have to be overt. The president is right about that.

But too many black people are niggerized. I would say the first black president has become the first niggerized black president.

CNN ANCHOR: What do you mean by that?

WEST: A niggerized black person is a black person who is afraid and scared and intimidated when it comes to putting a spotlight on white supremacy and fighting against white supremacy. So when many of us said we have to fight against racism, what were we told? 'No, he can't deal with racism because he has other issues, political calculations. He's the president of all America, not just black America.' We know he's president of all America but white supremacy is American as cherry pie.

We're talking about moral issues, spiritual issues, emotional issues. White supremacy has nothing to do with just skin pigmentation, it has to be what kind of person you want to be, what kind of nation we want to be. Democrats and Republicans play on both of those parties in terms of running away from the vicious legacy of white supremacy until it hits us hard. Thank God for Ferguson. Thank God for the young folk of all colors. Thank God for Staten Island and fighting there. Thank God in Baltimore, now the precious folk in Charleston.


Wow, see to me that's racism. Forget that fact that a black man was able to get elected in this allegedly "white supremacist" society and then call him a nigger ("niggerized") because he doesn't fight hard enough against the white supremacy that wasn't supreme enough to keep him from getting elected? No, let's ignore all the contrary evidence to one's deep seated hatred of whites and keep blaming them as a group for whatever you don't like about your own life. It must be nice to have a perpetual scape goat.

Actually, no I bet it sucks. Scape goat whiners don't sound particularly happy ... even when they get what they want. Thank god for Ferguson?? Thank god a black thief almost killed a white cop and the country went ape shit over that lie??? You don't have to thank god for that. It was the race baiters who made that myth into a cultural 'fact.'
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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Hashi Lebwohl
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. West is one of those stereotypical broken clocks who is correct twice per day.
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No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


Mensa and Intertel
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