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Iraq
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As of 2/19/06, how would you rate the Iraq War and its aftermath?
Total failure in all respects
43%
 43%  [ 36 ]
Terrible in terms of lives lost and a set back for U.S.-Middle East relations
28%
 28%  [ 23 ]
A major setback on the WOT, but democracy in Iraq at least
1%
 1%  [ 1 ]
Difficulties were expected yet it probably had to happen
12%
 12%  [ 10 ]
Not too badly, although our intel networks must improve
2%
 2%  [ 2 ]
Think it has gone relatively well
6%
 6%  [ 5 ]
A complete success so far
2%
 2%  [ 2 ]
I don't care as long as I'm safe
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
I'm lost, where is the Mallory thread?
3%
 3%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 82

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 2:40 pm    Post subject: NONONO!! DON'T DO IT!!!! This could b the day y'all! Reply with quote

Dam--I don't usually watch the news but they just said the weapons inspectors have been asked 2 leave Iraq this morning and a serious announcement is hours away.

Dam-please, please don't do this! I have an awful feeling that a series of horrible events r about 2 happen..and NOT just in Iraq!!! NO! STOP!!! Eeek
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Powell was just on television, the President will be announcing "something" tonight. War could come as early as tonight..
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad that Syl is still stateside, and that my friend who is a major in the army reserves hasn't been called up.
Selfish of me, I know, but I hated it when two of my cousins and one of my husband's stepbrothers and a lot of co-workers had to go to Saudi/Persian Gulf during Desert Storm. Sad
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a debate on TV here right now. It looks like they are taking the war for granted now and are debating the consequences it will have.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We appreciate your concern, but we're ready... I think, just judging from the mindset of my shipmates. *Sigh* If it wasn't for the things I knew, if I just went off what I heard in the media or the talk of my fellows, I think I'd be against this. It's been gone about just so wrong, and I have no clue why it's gone the way it has. I don't mean the UN, just the rationales and answers (or lack thereof) given. I fully support my government, but I also can't help but wonder if there will be repercussions down the road over the path we took (although I think the repercussions of action vs inaction are far less).

But, hey, the good news is that sailors have by far the lowest wartime mortality rate, and when the mortality rate is as low as it was in the gulf, that's low indeed (I think the only ship actually hit was the Stark, and I don't remember what the casualties were). Even if by some strange chance I get over there, I really wouldn't sweat it (and hey, I'd get hazardous duty pay and stuff like that too, so bonus Smile )
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just listened 2 2minutes of George Butt..er..Bush on Ahira's radio coming home, and heard just bout enuf 2 throw up! Sadaam and his sons have 48 hours 2 get the hell out of Dodge! We're sorry Iraqi people, we don't want 2 hurt U! Confused "At such a time necsesary, of our OWN chosing we will invade Iraq with our coalition."

What coalition? Is Tony going 2 carry little Georgie, piggyback, in2 the sandbox? Confused
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My friend, how many times have we heard this: to maintain peace is to make war, or “in order to have peace, we must go to war.” When you go to war, is it peace? Is WAR PEACE? Isn’t that statement the most absolute oxymoron you’ve ever heard? And isn’t Bush the latter half of "oxymoron"?

And hey, you would be a lot more alarmed if you saw the US through the eyes of the Middle East. Remember 9/11? Our attack on Iraq is essentially going to be the Middle East’s 9/11, in their eyes. It’s startling, but I’ve heard more than one person say exactly that. But we Americans are so aloof. 5,000 American lives at the World Trade Center are worth how many in the Middle East, hmm: it seems like more civilians than Iraq has, according to Bush.

And look at all these laws Bush has passed. Essentially, they can check our cars, our checking accounts, stick their noses in our lives basically, and why? Because it’s to “find out terrorists”... Right... 9/11 worked in ways we never thought it would. Extreme patriotism...into extreme paranoia toward the Middle East...into America itself becoming less free, right at home.

And now we can’t talk against Bush? The Dixie Chicks, it seems, are “in trouble” because they spoke out against Bush during a concert. Welcome to the new America. Welcome to the machine. Welcome to a country that has taken a step backwards, a land where blind fear of some ghost-like, unrealistic terror grips us, religious indifferences rule us, and the media feeds us propaganda... Many citizens are no longer citizens but DRONES, and they accept everything they’re fed. This is a media war, truly. And those who are against Bush are usually too afraid to speak out. What’s happening to us? This is NOT the country my grandfather defended in two wars. If we take another backward step, I say we need a good, sound ass kicking. We deserve it for our complacency, our ignorance of the True Terrorist. You know whom I mean!

Sorry for the rant, but I’ve got a lot of hot air bundled up in me. Plenty more, too...I’m a steam engine, really!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree! I think it's very dangerous: U act too agressively or make a mistake and something backfires, u piss off the Middle East...u piss off the Middle East u may piss off the world! Cussing
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh Foul .. I feel your despondency .. and raise you a .. 'tear' .. I have been forlorn all day .. I stayed up late the last couple of nights and watched the live satellite coverage of the UN no go .. and the Bush address..

I am so heavily weighed down with grief at the inevitability of the US agenda ..

I like danlo am overcome by an un-nerving feeling of dread .. I have never liked this prospect .. and now it is here regardless of what I think.

I can say no more than .. it is a black day .. and I am afraid what will come after this ..

Georgie rang our PM this morning and as to be expected Australia has committed troops in support of the US lead co-alition .. There is real dissention here in Parliament about the legitimacy and praciticality of this campaign.

I believe as many do that this course is a testimony of the fundamental failure of diplomacy ..

I pray for our troops .. the co-aliton troops .. the Iraqi people .. the Iraqi troops ..

omg .. the world .. international relations after this unprecedented event ..

I am sooooooooooooooooooo Crying or Very sad :cry :cry :cry Eureka Help Crazy Cross Fingers
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno. I figure if Bush and Co. get in quick and take Saddam and Co. out, the world will be a better place. Let's face it - Saddam isn't exactly a PLEASANT person by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm kind of all for the removal of despots across the world but of course there's the problem of becoming a despot in the process - but if a dozen or so rogues were taken out and the very real threat of similar action was to dangle in the faces of other would be tinpot dictators and actually served to turn them towards better and more democratic governance then that would be a good thing.

The only criticism I have of the US is that it is quick to condemn and obliterate those that affect their national interests but when faced with loons like Mugabe in Zimbabwe, the US (and indeed the world) provides verbal condemnation and that's about it.

These are interesting times we live in.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting to note how the UK and Australia are with us, on this. Could it be, possibly, that there's a type of intelligence that cannot be distributed to any other countries besides those two? Hmm, I think there is. Wink Not everybody in those governments agree, but not everybody has access. I've been out of the community for a couple years, but it seems likely to me.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vain, I wonder why we don't get rid of Saudi Arabia's despot?

Maybe because the Saudis support Bush? Idea

Furthermore, here’s this: most of Al Qaeda is composed of SAUDIS...BIN LADEN was a SAUDI... By those two simple facts alone AND the fact there's a dictator compiled in, shouldn’t our collective mouth be frothing in another direction?

And what's the use of "banning" Saddam? He'll still be rich. He'll still be powerful; just like Bin Laden was. What's more, Saddam will be even more influential. If you thought him capable of any harm to this country ( Laughing ), then when he is at rock bottom, forced from his country, and brooding-vengeful, is when he will strike. Not how he is now. Don't underestimate this man--we did before in the Gulf War.

And tell me if I'm wrong in my logic, but this is how I see the United States in their interaction with Saddam:

I walk up to a friend at school or anybody at all and say: "Hey, I don't know if you're going to hit me, and you HAVEN'T hit me, but just in case you do in the next three days or so, I'm going to hit you right now." When you go to court for assault, see how well THAT explanation holds up! Very Happy

But, trust me, in the long run, Chevron and a bunch of other oil companies will be pumping Iraq very soon, after this war’s over. You can call that just a claim, yeah. But you can call that a possibility, too, though. Heck--my claims have more possibility than Bush's claims and propaganda on Saddam. Can anyone point out when Bush EVER gave us any SHRED of evidence that Saddam poses a threat? Did he point out that Saddam is YEARS away from ever developing a nuke, or that he is 10 times less powerful than during the Gulf War? Or did Bush point out how the CIA said Saddam poses no threat? Or how there’s an ocean separating us, not to mention this: who’d be crazy enough to attack the world’s only superpower? Maybe small groups of extremists/terrorists... But Iraq?! A country?!! Attacking us? Think about that: another country attacking AMERICA. Ha. Ha. Ha, ha ha ha. Two words: tactical suicide.

Trust me, Bush intends on having his way with Iraq before it is over. I remember him addressing a news reporter inquiring to whether or not it was simply about oil. It was maybe last year, I think, or the beginning of this year. Either way, I won't forget the undeniable fakeness of his voice, or the look in his eyes when he denied it and waxed all syrupy about "providing freedom".
~


And just as a pointless side: why didn’t we kill Saddam during the Gulf War when we had the chance? He [senior Bush] thought the Kurds would handle it. What resulted from that? Our armies literally stood by and watched as Saddam massacred them. The track record in the Bush family is strong, real strong... Rolling Eyes

PS: I’m a Republican, if you have any doubts... AND I live in GEORGIA, and I’m a fan of ALABAMA FOOTBALL. Just so you know, us rednecks aren’t all media drones down here. Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 quote myself from the other Iraq-realted topic:

...about oil: Bin Laden (military trainer of HAMAS in Lebanon in the 80s, btw), if he is still alive is probably in Saudi Arabia, our buddy--which is a major supporter of terrorism and the gov't that spawned Bin Laden. Of course Pakistan harbored Bin Laden--even Kuwait hates us...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Foul wrote:
I walk up to a friend at school or anybody at all and say: "Hey, I don't know if you're going to hit me, and you HAVEN'T hit me, but just in case you do in the next three days or so, I'm going to hit you right now." When you go to court for assault, see how well THAT explanation holds up! Very Happy


Metaphors like this never really work, but if I was going to put it in those terms I think it'd go like, "Hey, Iraq, remember that time you jumped Kuwait for his lunch money and I stepped in and you tried to attack me? Well, after I beat you into submission I told you to seek anger management counseling or I'd do it again. Well, you've been missing some of your sessions, and my buddy Intel over here says you look like you might want to start a fight. Besides, I'm getting really annoyed with those spitballs you throw my way every now and then (firing on planes in the no-fly zone), and I'm thinking giving you the occasional wedgie just isn't getting through to you. The guys who had my back last time don't think you've crossed the line yet, but I can handle you myself and I'm not waiting for you to just jump somebody, maybe me, when we don't expect it and give 'em a bloody nose. Knock it off now, make up your sessions, or you're gonna get pounded on."

That's about the limit I can take this metaphor to, but it's a lot more complex than that. Just remember, generalizations, whether of Bush and his cabinet as oil hungry idiots, or of Iraq as a country full of American-hating arabs led by Satan's lover (thank you, Southpark), are damaging in the long run. They make things too easy, and in world-influencing events like this, nothing should be easy, even to the observer.

And if I may, that, I think, is the single largest mistake this administration has made: presenting the situation in a way that is "understandable by the common (i.e. uneducated) man." For one, that's insulting our intelligence. Secondly, the ignorant minority (I estimate at no greater than %30) will make their own generalizations, so there's no need to do it for them. Lastly, I support my Commander in Chief's actions, and I think more people would as well if the evidence had been laid out scientifically and strategicly, with more facts (and there are facts) and less rhetoric. It also couldn't have hurt to let this pass a while (maybe a year?) so it wouldn't seem such a kneejerk reaction of an administration "losing" a war on terror.

The cost of this war, even disregarding the priceless nature of life, will be far greater than any possible monetary gain from oil (and as many pundits point out, only a fraction of US oil comes from the gulf, not to mention what an increase in global oil trade will do to Texas oil prices). You could possibly argue that this is an attempt to break OPEC's hold on the oil market, but that is conjectural at best, conspiracy theory at worst. This administration has a goal, be it noble or self-serving, that cannot be summed up by saying, "It's all about "X." Only history will tell, and I believe that just might be the motivating factor behind all this.

By all means, fight for what you believe in, defend your positions. *noble stance* And I will defend democracy! heh. All I ask is for an open, observing mind.

And a pay raise! Now is the time to write to your congressmen in support of the underappreciated servicement! Do it for Sylvanus! Bonuses, not bombs can be your slogan if you like. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wrote this this morning in response 2 somebody, on another board, saying, oh well mayb it will be quick and easy...

it is xtremely hard 4 me 2 live while people r dying.

I had 2 break up 2 fights in my neighborhood this weekend and straighten out the cops on the situations. I had neighbors, not just anti/pro protestors threatening ea. other--that was little 2 real 4 me. I don't think any of this is simple at all--we have a facist arrogant gov't that's brainwashing us through the media, compromising our freedoms, ruining the economy and pissing off the world towards us...whether we attack Iraq or not--it's all going 2 come home 2 the US and all we need is an x-factor 2 set us all @ each other's throats..wrong counrty gets involved here...act of terrorism there. On one hand they say that there is no unrest in America and that 68% of the pop. support the war, but they r lying (heavily) on both accounts.

Well I guess it is simple--u tip-toe an xtremly fine gaunlet: u get him out and stabilize the country--u make it democratic, or whatever u do. No terrorists attacks occur while this is going on, the world doesn't get pissed off, every county in the mid-east region is fat and sassy, even Yemen and Pakistan. No single country goes off it's nut, like N. Korea, Isreal, Syria or Pakistan. Saudi Arabia doesn't do somthing weird. There r 2 many "what ifs" and THEN u have 2 keep that balancing act up 4 @ least a year's work of occupation and recovery (2 the tune of at least $95 billion $s from our taxes). We're supposed 2 create jobs in the US out of that?

As Covenant says, "...that's to easy." It's 2 good 2 b true--the mid-east is notoriously crazy. Something's going 2 go wrong somewhere--some little trigger is going 2 kill alot of innocent people. In any case the US is going 2 emerge a very ugly and internally hate-filled country...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would Israel go off its nut (I guess seeing Israel grouped with the other three sets off alarms in my head)?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not know that Israel can do much worse than they have already done, but if the situation gets more anti-american in the Middle-east I guess it could mean increased support for the palestinian cause from neighboring countries. I do not know if that would make that much of a difference, but it cannot be good.

On the other hand I have considered this matter closely, and I think that it is a good thing that Saddam Hussein is removed from his position as dictator of Iraq, and if it is possible to make this war short enough it would probably not be too bad for the people of Iraq either.

However; and this is a big however too, it rarely works that way. We have seen this before and what usually happens is that after the fighting is done is that the dictator is removed and "nothing" is put in his place. This is not something that is the fault of the US, it is seems to be common, but the result is the same: after the war is done the country just collapses.

The last, and best know example here is Serbia. It is only last week that Zoran Djindjik, the prime minister of Serbia was gunned down by the serbian "mafia" (organized crime). And Serbias prime export these days is criminals and crime. (Interpol estimates that the serbian mafia controls 70% of the heroin trade in several european countries.)

I do not think that this necessarily will happen in Iraq, probably not in fact, but the point I am trying to make here is that it is not the actual removal of Saddam Hussein that IMO is the great problem that the US is facing in this war. Their greatest challenge will be to create democracy out of the chaos that they will create by destroying him. And this is not something that can be done quickly.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The following was published on the Wall Street Journal.Com Opinion Journal on Tuesday March 18th. I wish I knew the author so that I could provide him with due credit.

____________________________________________________
Amid the fog of diplomacy these past few months, it has been easy to lose sight of American purposes in Iraq. But as President Bush reminded us last night, the imminent war to liberate the world from Saddam Hussein is both just and necessary.

The fighting that will soon commence is not in fact the start of this war. It is the beginning of the end of a war that began when Saddam invaded Kuwait on August 2, 1990. The first President Bush rallied the world to roll that invasion back but failed to seize the moment to gain a permanent victory. The Iraq war has continued ever since, with Saddam's agents attempting to assassinate the elder Mr. Bush and shoot down U.S. pilots.

In that sense this war is above all about American self-defense. Saddam may lack the means to invade the U.S., but we learned on September 11 that enemies can strike our homeland in other ways. With revenge as a motive, horrifying weapons as a means and terrorists willing to serve as his opportunity, Saddam poses a clear and present danger to Americans.

We cannot be sure that he has not already hit us. The opponents of disarming Saddam have sneered even at the possibility of a link between al Qaeda and Iraq, but that is not the kind of linkage either side would advertise. There is plenty of evidence that Iraq has harbored al Qaeda members, among other curious facts detailed by Laurie Mylroie. Mr. Bush has declared a "war on terror" and Saddam's Iraq is terrorism with an address.
We know that if nothing else Saddam and al Qaeda share the common goal of punishing the U.S. and driving us from the Mideast. In his famous 1998 fatwa endorsing the murder of Americans, "civilian and military alike," Osama bin Laden mentioned two main complaints: First, that U.S. troops were deployed on the Islamic holy land of Arabia, and second that U.S. planes continued to bomb Iraq while enforcing the U.N.'s no-fly zones.

Osama's jihad--and therefore September 11 itself--is in other words one direct consequence of the past 12 years of U.S. "containment" of Saddam. Without his continuing threat, American troops would not need to be stationed in Saudi Arabia and U.S. fighters would not still patrol the skies over Iraq. While fretting about the costs of going to Baghdad, those who favor a policy of sanctions and diplomacy have never been honest about the real costs of containment.

Yes, it would be nice if President Bush now led the same global alliance that his father enjoyed in 1991. But he made every attempt to enlist that support in the U.N., only to run up against French and Russian intransigence that was beyond any persuasion. The failure to secure Turkish support is a bigger problem and was a misstep. Why Secretary of State Powell never traveled to Ankara remains a mystery.
But in the end Mr. Bush will lead a coalition that is large enough to do the job. It includes Tony Blair's Britain, Spain, Italy, nearly all of the newly free states of Eastern Europe and Australia. Now that they believe Saddam's days are finally numbered, Iraq's neighbors are also lining up on America's side. Even the Saudis are allowing U.S. base rights after months of fence-sitting.

These countries understand that America is the only protector the world now has against monsters like Saddam. The U.N. cannot defend them in a crisis, and the French will gladly sell the ammunition to the tyrant who shoots them. As in Kosovo and Somalia and Afghanistan, if the U.S. fails to lead an effort against scourges or dictators, their tyranny will continue.

The end of the 12-year Iraq war could produce other, longer-term benefits beyond security. One is that the forces of Islamic extremism will have suffered another blow, emboldening more moderate forces to speak against them. Another is the opportunity to rebuild a self-governing Iraq that is a lesson to the rest of the Arab and Muslim world.

The mullahs of Iran, already ruling precariously, may well face a more powerful public uprising. The Saudis may conclude that they no longer need to wink at the bin Ladens of their society to stay in power. In the best case, the Arab world will begin to accept political pluralism and enter the 21st century, or at least the 20th.

Of course there are costs and dangers to removing Saddam now. The law of unintended consequences hasn't been repealed, no war ever goes precisely as planned, and some Americans and civilians will die. The justification for those deaths is that they will save more lives in the long run. Saddam's agents will no doubt unleash whatever havoc they can, perhaps even in America itself, but that should only underscore that sooner or later they would have done so anyway.
The largest risk is an imponderable: whether Americans can generate the political consensus to sustain involvement in Iraq. Toppling Saddam is a long-term undertaking, as the stories now leaking about the Administration's plans reveal. With the exception of post-World War II, the U.S. has never been good at nation-building. At least we seem to be learning from early mistakes in Afghanistan, suggesting that we may do better in Iraq.

The polls show that most Americans understand the coming burden and still favor war; after 9/11 they realize the dangers of ignoring foreign threats. About U.S. elites there are greater doubts. Our liberal pundits and politicians are fickle interventionists; many of them signed on early to topple Saddam but have lately been offering caveats and cavils as D-Day approaches. Will they run for moral cover if the going gets tough, as they did in Vietnam?

About one thing we have no doubt: the courage of the Americans who will fight in our defense. We trust that their generals will be as daring, and their President as determined, as American soldiers will be in pursuing victory. [/i]
___________________________________________________________

Thank you Sylvanus. Your service ensures our freedoms so that discussions such as these can occur. I applaud your conviction and bravery.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, see, if the administration would've put it out like that in the beginning, I think we would be having less problems now. Good article, Brinn.

And thank you for the recognition, but I must say that I am not worthy of such statements. I will accept it on behalf of my shipmates and the soldiers and airmen actually over there and risking their lives. We really do appreciate it.
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-George Steiner
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently the heavy bombing has started today. Sad
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